Grounds

[Mark P]

As you can see the ground wires from numerous circuits are twisted together and a single pigtail (from each group) is running to the grounding/neutral bus bar. Since I have not seen this before (that I can remember) I assume it is wroung. Can someone confirm this is wrong. If it is wrong I'm trying to figure out why it is wrong seems it should work???

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[John Dirks Jr]

If a charge needs to find ground I doubt the electricity itself would know the difference. I'd like to hear the response from the gurus as well. I'd be uncomfortable just saying it's fine as is.

[rkenney]

If, instead of grounds, these were 'hot' or 'neutral wires, would it be more wrong?

Why do we use wire nuts to make connections?

Why is the integrity of connections between ground conductors less important than the connections between un-grounded conductors?

Could this be really 'sloppy work?'

[hausdok]

It's jackleg work.

Where's the bond to the neutral bus?

He didn't have enough room on that bus for all of the grounded conductors as well as the equipment grounding conductors and he was too lazy to install a bus to handle the excess equipment grounding conductors. Ask yourself if that's been done in a workmanlike manner and if not write it up and call it was it is - a rat's nest.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[Marc]

A compression connector is needed. Twisting alone is insufficient.

E3306.10 Splices. Conductors shall be spliced or joined with splicing devices listed for the purpose. Splices and joints and the free ends of conductors shall be covered with an insulation equivalent to that of the conductors or with an insulating device listed for the purpose. Wire connectors or splicing means installed on conductors for direct burial shall be listed for such use.

Marc

[John Dirks Jr]

A compression connector is needed. Twisting alone is insufficient.

E3306.10 Splices. Conductors shall be spliced or joined with splicing devices listed for the purpose. Splices and joints and the free ends of conductors shall be covered with an insulation equivalent to that of the conductors or with an insulating device listed for the purpose. Wire connectors or splicing means installed on conductors for direct burial shall be listed for such use.

Marc

Yup, with the proper connector and as long as the single conductor that connects to the buss is not smaller than any of the individual ones in the bundle, it would be acceptable by code, correct?

[Richard Moore]

If, instead of grounds, these were 'hot' or 'neutral wires, would it be more wrong?

You could overload and fry a neutral pigtail, but current caused by a ground fault should be momentary and quickly trip the breaker. So, yeah, it would be "more wrong" for a hot or neutral.

Why do we use wire nuts to make connections?

Like others have mentioned, I would be comfortable with a compression sleeve at the twisted areas.

Why is the integrity of connections between ground conductors less important than the connections between un-grounded conductors?

Both are important but see above.

Could this be really 'sloppy work?'

I think we have all seen much, much worse!

[Marc]

Yup, with the proper connector and as long as the single conductor that connects to the buss is not smaller than any of the individual ones in the bundle, it would be acceptable by code, correct?

If the conductors are properly sized and the connector is listed for the purpose, yes, as far as I know.

I'm not sure if you'll find a connector that's listed to receive a dozen or so EGC's that are twisted together that way.

Marc

[rkenney]

If, instead of grounds, these were 'hot' or 'neutral wires, would it be more wrong?

You could overload and fry a neutral pigtail, but current caused by a ground fault should be momentary and quickly trip the breaker. So, yeah, it would be "more wrong" for a hot or neutral.

Point is, wrong is wrong. Write it up.

Why do we use wire nuts to make connections?

Like others have mentioned, I would be comfortable with a compression sleeve at the twisted areas.

So, you should be uncomfortable? Write it up.

Why is the integrity of connections between ground conductors less important than the connections between un-grounded conductors?

Both are important but see above.

I see alot of loose ground conductors. If not now, when? Write it up.

Could this be really 'sloppy work?'

I think we have all seen much, much worse!

I'm not going to write that in the report, and neither are you. If the panel looks like this, lots of room to work and an easy fix, what's the rest of the wiring look like? Just write it up

[Mark P]

Good Discussion guys - thanks and enjoy the rest of your weekend.

[Jim Katen]

As you can see the ground wires from numerous circuits are twisted together and a single pigtail (from each group) is running to the grounding/neutral bus bar. Since I have not seen this before (that I can remember) I assume it is wroung. Can someone confirm this is wrong.

It's wrong.

If it is wrong I'm trying to figure out why it is wrong seems it should work???

It's wrong because twisting wires together is not a recognized form of splicing (110.14(B)).

I'd also argue that it's wrong because you can't isolate one circuit without interrupting the grounding continuity of other circuits.

[Douglas Hansen]

408.40 in the NEC requires a terminal bar for the equipment grounding conductors. The panel manufacturers do not always supply a separate equipment ground bar, since the same panel might be used as service equipment where the equipment grounds and neutrals could go on the same bar. They do make separate terminal bars that are easily added to a panel like this one.

While it is not likely to have any effect on the electrical performance of this piece of equipment, allowing a thing like this to pass is the first step on a slippery slope. It is the signature of someone who did not know how to wire a panel. It should be corrected by a real electrician.