New Jersey Licensing Law change

[Steven Hockstein]

I heard that NJ Assembly Bill A3983 was passed yesterday. I understand that this reduces some of the requirements to become a Licensed NJ Home Inspector.

I was grandfathered for my license so it does not really affect me personally. I feel sorry for everyone that was not able to be grandfathered and worked hard to jump through all of the hoops and did everything required to become licensed and now finds out that they did a lot of extra work for nothing. On the positive side, these people are now much more qualified to do inspections.

[Bill Kibbel]

That's not quite correct. A3983 passed out of the Assembly Regulated Professions and Independent Authorities Committee last Thursday WITH AMENDMENTS. There has been no action since. There are more steps in both the Assembly and Senate before this Bill can become law.

You stated: "it does not really affect me personally". With one major E&O carrier already pulling out of NJ and another doubling rates and deductibles, what's going to happen if this bill passes? One of the amendments will be the final nail in the coffin. How can a licensed HI, required to carry E&O, keep his license if there is no one writing or renewing policies in the State?

[DonTx]

Not trying to hi-jack the thread here, but I have a Client moving here from NJ. She said Inspectors there are putting people on waiting list to inspect their homes. She some people are choosing to buy homes without inspections because they can not find an Inspector before their option period expires.

Is this correct?

Seems you guys should be able to write your own retirement checks if it is/was true!!!

[Darren]

Bill,

What's the name of the E & O company pulling out?

Don,

Not true on that part, business is down 30% for me. My problem is I don't market to realtors & of course I didn't renew my franchise agreement (changed my name).

Darren

[Bill Kibbel]

Darren,

Allen Insurance Group is not writing or renewing north of I-195.

Don,

It's Probably the preferred vendors and well known "assist with the sale" inspectors that are booked up. We can accommodate within 7 days.

[Steven Hockstein]

Originally posted by inspecthistoric

That's not quite correct. A3983 passed out of the Assembly Regulated Professions and Independent Authorities Committee last Thursday WITH AMENDMENTS. There has been no action since. There are more steps in both the Assembly and Senate before this Bill can become law.

You stated: "it does not really affect me personally". With one major E&O carrier already pulling out of NJ and another doubling rates and deductibles, what's going to happen if this bill passes? One of the amendments will be the final nail in the coffin. How can a licensed HI, required to carry E&O, keep his license if there is no one writing or renewing policies in the State?

The reason is that Home Inspections is a minor portion of my business and income. I am primarly an architect.

As far as my insurance, the small amount of home inspections that I perform (2-3 a week) is covered under my architecture policy.

[Steven Hockstein]

Originally posted by Donald Lawson

Not trying to hi-jack the thread here, but I have a Client moving here from NJ. She said Inspectors there are putting people on waiting list to inspect their homes. She some people are choosing to buy homes without inspections because they can not find an Inspector before their option period expires.

Is this correct?

Seems you guys should be able to write your own retirement checks if it is/was true!!!

I have been swamped with home inspection requests during the last few weeks. Since I limit myself to 2-3 a week, I estimate that I referred away between 20-25 inspections to my home inspector friends because I could not meet their schedules(they better remember this when it is time to buy drinks at our next gatherinmg []).

Darren, come to the June Seminar and talk to me.I can add you to my referral list.

[Darren]

Well, it's almost official, the idiots, I mean the "elected officials" passed the new stripped down requirements for New Jersey licensing. It's up to our "non elected governor" to sign the bill.

Sad to say, the NACHI guys won the war.

It's kinda funny if you go on the NACHI board; they are claiming that now ALL qualified inspector will be licensed.

Just another example of 'taking the easy route'.

Scott P, I'm interested in hearing the official stance ASHI is taking on the NJ law; it used to be ranked #1, now, who knows.

Darren

Disgusted in NJ

[Scottpat]

Hi Darren, I don't have a clue as to the ranking. I did not agree with the #1 slot to start out with, as I felt the law was to restrictive with the "indentured servitude" experience requirement. I don't think that experience should be a requirement, IMO.

I have not seen the new version but if it has testing (NHIE), good standards (like ASHI), Good Educational requirements ( 100-200 hours), and Insurance requirements (E&O and GL) I would think that it would rank fairly high.

Note, I am not the official voice or opinion of ASHI.

[wordsofman]

Guys, like it or not, the Governor signed the bill into law August 18. The advisory board, being against the changes, has so far not created any new paperwork for licensure. The law clearly states that anyone qualifying can apply for full licensure during the first 180 days after the bill is signed. However, without the cooperation of the advisory board, another road block has been erected for those who now qualify under the new rules.

[Bill Kibbel]

This just in:

NJ Senate Bill to abolish Home Inspection Advisory Committee

"S2898 Abolishes Home Inspection Advisory Committee; transfers duties to State Board of Professional Engineers and Land Surveyers. Sarlo, Paul A. as Primary Sponsor."

[NJ NACHI]

The staff at the HIAC has mailed out an activation form for the Associates here in NJ so they can get their full license. Hopefully no more road blocks weill be encountered. Tuesday Dec 13 will tell!

The Associates getting their licenses represents the best training program ever in the HI business. Had there been co-operation on the part of licensed inspectors to mentor and hire this the Associates, the law may never had to change!

NJ NACHI is being blamed/congratulated for this when in reality the existing work force whose leadership started this program may really be at fault for their failure provide the licensed people to help the newbies in the pipeline. I guess really asking peoplem to train their competition was the law's real downfall.

It was doomed from the beginning!

NJ NACHI

[Darren]

I take exception to "the best training program ever in the HI business".

I have over 70 mentored inspections with 4 different individuals, the training falls well short of my expectations OR all 4 were not good students (I chose the former).

Now, with the help of your organization, the training will be even less.

Phil, not one of the individuals knew what the maximum height of a riser was or how many riser are allowed before a handrail is required; NOT ONE. Two out of 4 knew there was a problem with Plex-vent but didn't know what it looked like when they saw it.

I put together a little 10 question test that pertains to NJ Home inspectors, would you like to take it?

PS: as a side note I also take exception to "training the competition". 2 years ago I found a realtor with a vacant house, he got permission for me to use it as a practice run. I invited 6 students, 1 showed up. We spent 6 hours (it would have been longer except the realtor had to leave); after that, forget about it!

Darren

[hausdok]

Hi,

First, a warning. If this thread disintegrates into a Whoever vs. NACHI thread with personal attacks I'll delete everything past the announcement. Play nice. It's the same with the rest of the board. The sniping at each other is going to stop or I'm going to begin exercising the delete key.

That said, you folks in NJ could have saved yourselves about 7 years of heartburn and enmity if you'd only ditched the 'grandfathering' and mentoring portions of your law and had substituted a peer review process that required every single inspector in the state to get a 'go' or face being shut down. That, along with education and a basic written test would provide the public the consumer protection they unknowingly 'think' they have when they pick up a phone to call an inspector in any state.

It's real simple - go to school, take a written test to ensure you've absorbed enough of what you learned to be functional and then undergo a peer review that everyone in the profession must complete. We've all gone through a peer review process - we do it when we go down to get a driver's license. We must study, take a written test and then undergo a driver's test.

The process is simple. You have defined parameters of performance for every task and the evaluator just checks off a yes, no, or N/A for every task on the list that's encountered in the process. Get enough 'go's' and you receive a go. Not get enough and it's back to school for more training before you try again.

It's been done for decades for a ton of professions. Off the top of my head, pilots, electricians, plumbers, cops, soldiers, hair dressers and barbers come to mind, but I know there are dozens of others in professions that far outnumber home inspectors, so I know that the excuse, "It's too complicated and the home inspection business it to fragmented to do it," won't fly.

Then, it wouldn't have mattered if the inspector had been in the process 1 week or 30 years, everyone would have had to have gotten a 'go" on the peer review in order to have been issued a license. It was one of the things that the original group of folks who first attempted to organize the profession back in the 70's wanted incorporated into the profession.

The founders even tried to get college courses designed for the profession that would confer a degree. They even had peer review for a while. Then folks got lazy and someone less interested in peer review took the helm and allowed interest to flag. It wasn't long before it was dead.

If it had been law and they'd been required to do it, it would still be alive today and would have spread across the country. Too bad so many of those folk took the easy route, dropped peer review and then began to covet real estate referrals as the holy grail. Had they stuck to their guns, we in the profession would be better off today. It's not too late though. Every home inspector licensing/certification/registration law on the books could still be fixed if peer review were incorporated into the process now.

Sure, logic dictates that people are still going to choose a more experienced inspector over a rookie, so having done an internship with an established inspection company would be seen by most consumers as a plus when evaluating inspectors who haven't been in the business long, but that could have been strictly voluntary on the part of the newly licensed inspector. If he/she didn't want to do an internship, so be it, then it's slog for several years trying to get enough referrals to survive, in order to get the experience that customers are looking for.

Sometimes I think that you folks in New Jersey thrive on your in-fighting. It's a shame, because your law was otherwise pretty solid.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[NJ NACHI]

When I said the best training ever, that means on a mass basis. I know others like yourself who went well beyond the NJ law when they got into the business. I have been in residential construction 35 plus years had 300 hours of specific HI training and did 58 mentored inspections.

Sure Darren I would take any test you wanted to give me if you take mine! What does that prove.

The Carson-Dunlop course material was very thorough and those who GOT IT will be well trained comapred to most other programs available. The course hours are 21 per module not 30 as per the NJ law and this includes test taking talking about extraneous issues etc. So the reduction in hours of a Home Study Course which this program is will not effect those individuals who will make it in the business. I hope they keep the course and text books as the new curriculum.

I applaud you for doing you part to mentor. I would do the same. That being said most of the students coming out of the porgram had a tough time getting a mentor. That is really the fact!

I was approached just before the committee meetings started by a SJ ASHI guy who said he represented ALL of the groups in NJ to make a deal. I knew him and gave him the courtesy of listening to what they had to say.

The first draft of A3983 said a course of not less than 300 hours which left the door open to keep the existing course. I told him I would ask our leadership to keep the mentored inspections but hat the 250 employed by had to go. I would only agree to the above if he could guarantee a mentor for each and every student finishing the school. He said he could not go back to his group and get that guarantee and that ended the meeting. The same roadblock as always, lack of enough mentors!

Our main goal was really just to take the control of the licensed inspectors out of the equation for us to become licensed.

Each and every individual can do as many mentored inspections as they like until they feel comfortable. They can also work for someone if they like.

I believe the 140 hour program will encourage construction professional, not necessarily tradesmen to now enter the business. I know a solid construction background is a very valuable asset. I believe this to good for the industry. My first encounter with a home inspector was with an ex local ASHI President who told me the industry needed more construction professionals in the business.

This NJ law was too much too soon! At the Senate Committee Meeting Senator Cardinale told the ASHI contingent that he would encourage upping the standards at the appropriate time. I agree. May be we should start with a better Standards of Practice,

Your thoughts!

Phillip R. Hinman

NJ NACHI

[NJ NACHI]

Furthermore, does anyone know who is behind S2898?

Phillip R. Hinman

NJ NACHI

[Neal Lewis]

Phil,

Assuming it is someone who is dissatisfied with the committee; it's not you or HICAG?

I was curious about that myself; maybe I'll ask the other M.F. what's up with this.

S2898 Abolishes Home Inspection Advisory Committee; transfers duties to State Board of Professional Engineers and Land Surveyors.

[NJ NACHI]

Hey Neal! How are you? Good to hear from you.

No it was neither of us. I am however not sure of the long term effects on NJ HI's. What do you think? I know some PE's and get mixed thoughts from them.

Once this grandfathering/Associates License stuff is done there may be a lot less time required to adminsiter the process. Once some one finishes the school and takes the test and has a background check licensing should proceed much smoother.

Anyone who has had to go before the Board knows it can be a very tough deal. I have been to many meetings and have seen some outrageous things proposed and done.

Have you been lurking in the background and watching this thing play out! Maybe I will see you at an ALPHI meeting!

Phillip R. Hinman

NJ NACHI

[Darren]

Phil,

Send me your e-mail, I'll send you the quiz.

And heres a question; does anyone fail these courses?

Darren

[Scottpat]

From an outsider with allot of experience in home inspector license legislation's, I see a mess. The entire NJ law past, present and future should be thrown in the trash. It's not that hard to develop a meaningful license law, many good ones are already on the books and have a proven track record.

The part about grandfathering in PE's and the like is a bunch of bunk.

Everyone should start at ground zero when it comes to testing. the following is a simple model of HI license requirements.

1. Require between 100 and 150 hours of pre-license education, if the person has less than 100 inspections or three years in the profession.

2. Pass the NHIE

3. Parallel inspections between 10&20 of them.

4. Require GL insurance

5. Require continuing education

Once this is done the person should not have to go in front of a board to be approved. The application should be approved automatically if everything is completed.

[NJ NACHI]

Darren,

My email is phinman845@comcast.net

The course is a pass/fail. I gave test throughout the course when I was teaching it to see if there was some progress being made. Not everyone did that. I went to BICI and they tested every module several times also. I do not believe the DOE has a strcit standard.

Passing the national test should be of some value in assessing a students progress. At this time it is the only way to determine if someone understands the materials.

If you did not think your students were competent you could have refused to sign their reports and sent a letter to the state. It was done by another mentor with bad results! A letter from the students lawyer! There are really a million reasons why this law did not work.

I agree with Scott that the law should have been scrapped, but that was not an option. I always thought regestering everyone in the business, testing them and giving them time to go to school made more sense. Make them have insurance alos. This law put many guys out of the business who were doing part time or as an part of their primary business.

Just my thoughts!

Phillip R. Hinman

NJ NACHI

[NJ NACHI]

Important NJ Update!

At yesterday's HIAC meeting we were told that all Associates would be licensed as per the bill!

We had an attorney present who greased the wheels as they say and all has worked out for the Associates who once faced the possiblity of having to go back to school after some crazy scenarios.

There are still a few more details to work out for the present students but we have 2 of the 3 original problems resolved.

After 2 1/2 years I will finally have a license! Others have been waiting longer. Any state considering the original law better re-think it!

Phillip R. Hinman

NJ NACHI

[Scottpat]

Any state considering the original law better re-think it!

As NJ was one of the worst laws on the books I don't think this will be an issue![:-paperba

[Jeff Remas]

This law is a total cluster and watered down to keep us from becoming a profession. We are still an industry in NJ. Since I work on the border, I am still waiting for the dust to settle before applying.

Yeah, other states, please take note of this complete cluster.

[Steven Hockstein]

I heard that NJ passed a new amendment to the law that will require some type of energy inspection or report as part of the home inspection. There was discussion of some amendments. Anyone know about the details?