Another Panel

[DonTx]

This is a panel that one of my other inspectors found on new construction.

From what I can tell, the neutrals are not grounded. I'm not sure why they have a jumper from the neutral buss to the ground buss since it does not look like the ground buss is grounded.

I'm not sure why they added another ground bus to the panel instead of using the one that was there, unless they started to use this as a sub panel.

Any thoughts?

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[Neal Lewis]

Don,

It does look like the neutrals are grounded by the green bonding screw at the top of the bus. The label should indicate that the screw is the bond.

I've never seen a jumper like that one; it doesn't look factory installed. You're right, I don't see a need for the additional ground bus at the far left.

[hausdok]

Hi,

It looks fine to me. The green screw effectively bonds the neutral bus to the panel. Since there is an extra ground bus, the cross bar isn't really needed. It's redundant, but not really an issue. Basically, it's now a panel with two neutral buses and one ground bus. I'm guessing that the extra bus is just the electricians own personal quirk.

Pretty clean panel compared to a lot that I see.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[DonTx]

Gotta admit; I missed the green ground screw.

[Brian G]

I've never seen a jumper like that, but I don't think it's handmade. Those tight little bends are too neat and consistant, with heat-shrink insulating the mid-section no less.

I think the guy has his panel / sub panel rules confused on the neutral and/or equipment ground bars, but it should be fine as is.

Brian G.

[inspectort]

Hey guys, thought I would give my 2 cents worth. I have seen this type of panel before. The bonding jumper does appear to be installed correctly. Those jumpers are listed components of this type panel. Crappy workmanship IMO. Looks like a homeowner job. Most experienced electricians will twist the nuetrals or the grounds before terminating in the buss bar to insure a good connection.

T.

[DonTx]

Twist solid wire for a good connection? I'd say if you had to twist solid wire for a good connection, then you sould only be using one wire under the set screw. Anyways, those neutrals go under single set screws instead of being doubled up like they are.

[hausdok]

Hi Don,

You're right, I should have caught the doubled neutrals. I call the danged things every day, don't understand why I missed 'em here. Interesting that our electrician friend calls this crappy workmanship. Compared to most of what I see around here it's a jewel.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[inspectort]

Some manufacturers realize that in some cases you don't have enough spaces for all of the neutrals and grounds and in some cases allow you to put more than one wire under a terminal, but these panels are listed and labeled for that use and will typically say it on the inside door of newer panels. But in this case there are plenty of spaces and would not apply. That extra ground bar may not be listed for that panel either. I fail jobs occasionally on workmanship. Can't stand a sloppy job. I take pride in my trade and think others should too. I have even revoked some so called electricians licenses over sloppy workmanship in the past and hope they take up turd chasen. If their going to do shit work, they should get in the right trade. Just an opinion.

T.

T.

[Erby]

T.

What's your opinion regarding the white wire used as hot (without being permanently reidentified as such) on the bottom right breaker.

[inspectort]

Hey Erby,

First things first, what about those CATS? For the rest of you out there not from Kentucky, that is a typical greeting for Kentuckians. Well to be honest with you, I think that only became a code requirement in the 2002NEC code cycle. I know for sure it did for switch loops for lights or recepticles were the white wire is used as a hot wire it has to be marked with tape or a marker, some even use heat shrink. Another reason I think it was a homeowner job, common sence says it should have been marked. Good eyes. And I will check the code reference on that.

T.

[DonTx]

T.

That panel was on new construction.

[Jim Katen]

Originally posted by inspectort

Some manufacturers realize that in some cases you don't have enough spaces for all of the neutrals and grounds and in some cases allow you to put more than one wire under a terminal, but these panels are listed and labeled for that use and will typically say it on the inside door of newer panels.

If you ever see one of those panels and have a camera handy, I'd really like to see a picture of it. To the best of my knowlege, there isn't a manufacturer out there today who'll allow more than one neutral wire under a single terminal. Cutler Hammer has a confusing label that seems to allow this but, in fact, it does not. The prohibition is part of UL 67 and goes back at least 40 years.

But in this case there are plenty of spaces and would not apply. That extra ground bar may not be listed for that panel either. I fail jobs occasionally on workmanship. Can't stand a sloppy job. I take pride in my trade and think others should too. I have even revoked some so called electricians licenses over sloppy workmanship in the past and hope they take up turd chasen. If their going to do shit work, they should get in the right trade. Just an opinion.

T.

This panel is fraught with poor workmanship. I particularly like the mass of wires passing through the unbushed knockout and wad of spray foam.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[Jim Katen]

Originally posted by inspectort

Hey Erby,

First things first, what about those CATS? For the rest of you out there not from Kentucky, that is a typical greeting for Kentuckians. Well to be honest with you, I think that only became a code requirement in the 2002NEC code cycle. I know for sure it did for switch loops for lights or recepticles were the white wire is used as a hot wire it has to be marked with tape or a marker, some even use heat shrink.

I think the exception for switch loops was eliminated in the '99 version. Check out 200-7©(2).

In any case, the general rule that neutral (grounded) wires are colored white goes way back. It's in my 1947 edition and is probably much older.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[inspectort]

Jim, you are correct sir. The wording was changed in section 200-7 of the 99 NEC. The exception (for switch loops) was eliminated in the 99 NEC code cycle. However that does not excuse it from being marked in that panel. I really can't tell by the picture if that has a black snap in bushing where the branch circuts enter the panel or not. But that foam has to go. Should have used approved fire caulk like they use for panetration through fire walls or something similar approved to be in contact with the insulation.

T.

T.

[Jim Katen]

Originally posted by inspectort

. . . I really can't tell by the picture if that has a black snap in bushing where the branch circuts enter the panel or not. But that foam has to go. Should have used approved fire caulk like they use for panetration through fire walls or something similar approved to be in contact with the insulation.

T.

What do you think of the mass of wires passing through a single knock-out like that?

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[Amn]

[Warning, amateur alert]

So are those bare ground wires grounded or what? It almost looks like they brush up against the left neutral bar, which is jumpered over to the right neutral bar, which is connected at the green screw to a thick, striped sheathed, grounding wire which disappears in the middle of the photo to god knows where....still with me?

Dazed and confused.

A

[Jim Katen]

Originally posted by Amn

[Warning, amateur alert]

So are those bare ground wires grounded or what? It almost looks like they brush up against the left neutral bar, which is jumpered over to the right neutral bar, which is connected at the green screw to a thick, striped sheathed, grounding wire which disappears in the middle of the photo to god knows where....still with me?

Dazed and confused.

A

Yes the bare copper wires are grounded just fine.

Fault current that returns on those wires will trip a breaker via the path you described. That's the important issue with branch circuit grounding wires. The NEC refers to it as "equipment grounding"

Now somewhere in this service there should also be an earth-ground. The NEC (sort of) calls it, "system grounding" but some people are trying to change it to "earthing" or somesuch. The conductor for system grounding is called the "electrode grounding conductor (EGC)." It might originate in the service panel or it might originate in the meter can and its other end is supposed to terminate in the earth via one of a half dozen different methods. The presence, absence or integrity of the earth-ground will have *no effect* on the proper grounding of the branch circuits. It's there to stabilize voltage to the "electrical system" during surges.

There's still another kind of grounding that the code calls "bonding." That's when we connect certain conductive building materials to each other and to the electrical grounding system to prevent voltage potential from occuring between them.

In this picture, the two thicker copper wires at the bottom of the grounding terminal bar are, I suspect, the parts of the grounding system that you're looking for. I'll bet that one goes to earth, probably via the building steel, and the other goes to the water supply system pipes. Contrary to popular belief, there's no requirement that the EGC be colored green, though it often is. Black is fine. (Orange and white are forbidden.)

The thick striped sheathed wire at the upper right terminal bar is not a grounding wire, it's the neutral service entrance conductor. I think the stripe is white. (It's supposed to be anyway.)

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[kurt]

Jim, you're getting pretty good @ this; I've C&P'd that middle paragraph.

[Amn]

Originally posted by Jim Katen

Yes the bare copper wires are grounded just fine...In this picture, the two thicker copper wires at the bottom of the grounding terminal bar are, I suspect, the parts of the grounding system that you're looking for. I'll bet that one goes to earth, probably via the building steel, and the other goes to the water supply system pipes.

The thick striped sheathed wire at the upper right terminal bar is not a grounding wire, it's the neutral service entrance conductor. I think the stripe is white. (It's supposed to be anyway.)

Now I understand. Thank you.

A

[inspectort]

Hey Jim,

You asked what I or we thought of the mass of wires coming through the single opening. I would like to see an inch or so of the outer covering of the nmc coming through that hole. I can't really tell by the picture, but if it has a snap in bushing in that hole so the conductors are not subject to physical damage,I don't really have a problem with that, but again, I can't really tell by the picture the size of the knock out, and how the wires are arranged because of the foam. May be a little tight. If your asking if I would be concerned with any heating of the conductors passing through the small opening, the answer would be no.

T.

[Jim Katen]

Originally posted by inspectort

Hey Jim,

You asked what I or we thought of the mass of wires coming through the single opening. I would like to see an inch or so of the outer covering of the nmc coming through that hole. I can't really tell by the picture, but if it has a snap in bushing in that hole so the conductors are not subject to physical damage,I don't really have a problem with that, but again, I can't really tell by the picture the size of the knock out, and how the wires are arranged because of the foam. May be a little tight. If your asking if I would be concerned with any heating of the conductors passing through the small opening, the answer would be no.

T.

Thanks.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[Brian G]

Originally posted by inspectort

I can't really tell by the picture, but if it has a snap in bushing in that hole so the conductors are not subject to physical damage,I don't really have a problem with that...

I don't know if they're still doing it, but the common practice here used to be to install a 2" PVC male adapter and pull most of the 12/2 WG's through it. The local AHJ's never objected.

Brian G.

[inspectort]

Hey Brian,

What about those Cats and Cards, man they looked great huh? We accept the PVC connecter also, usually see the snap in bushing, its cheaper.

T.

[inspectort]

Hey Don,

I just noticed something, does the AHJ there only accept 20amp circuts for all branch circuts serving general lighting outlets and recepticles? Just curious why there are no 15amp circuts in the panel.