Dimensional shingles installed incorrectly

[kurt]

Just about every problem I see with roofing could be solved with IWS.

About 99% of the IWS installs I see are wrong, i.e., the IWS doesn't wrap behind the gutter. Or, it doesn't extend high enough up the roof. Or, they put it at the eaves, but didn't wrap the skylite curbs, etc., etc., etc......

[Marc]

Like so much that we see, some things can be ill conceived or poorly wrought, yet they've been that way for years and have performed just fine. It makes the job tougher . . . seeing something that's dopey or wrong, but realizing, too, that it isn't going to cause any problems.

That said, 90% of the losses I wrote while I was doing the FEMA gig after Katrina and Rita wouldn't have been losses if ice and water shield was on the entire roof deck.

I assume you're referring to areas with only wind losses. But even so, imagine trying the change a roof finish with Grace's Ice & Water Shield all over the deck. It gets damaged...how you gonna remove it?

Marc

[Erby]

Jon, where do you get that no underlayment is "totally permissible."

Doesn't the Kentucky Building Code call for underlayment "STARTING AT THE EAVE".

What am I missing.

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R905.2.7 Underlayment application. For roof slopes from two units vertical in 12 units horizontal (17-percent slope), up to four units vertical in 12 units horizontal (33-percent slope), underlayment shall be two layers applied in the following manner. Apply a 19-inch (483 mm) strip of underlayment felt parallel with and starting at the eaves, fastened sufficiently to hold in place. Starting at the eave, apply 36-inch-wide (914 mm) sheets of underlayment, overlapping successive sheets 19 inches (483 mm), and fastened sufficiently to hold in place. For roof slopes of four units vertical in 12 units horizontal (33-percent slope) or greater, underlayment shall be one layer applied in the following manner. Underlayment shall be applied shingle fashion, parallel to and starting from the eave and lapped 2 inches (51mm), fastened sufficiently to hold in place. End laps shall be offset by 6 feet (1829 mm).

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[Bain]

Jon, where do you get that no underlayment is "totally permissible."

Doesn't the Kentucky Building Code call for underlayment "STARTING AT THE EAVE".

What am I missing.

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R905.2.7 Underlayment application. For roof slopes from two units vertical in 12 units horizontal (17-percent slope), up to four units vertical in 12 units horizontal (33-percent slope), underlayment shall be two layers applied in the following manner. Apply a 19-inch (483 mm) strip of underlayment felt parallel with and starting at the eaves, fastened sufficiently to hold in place. Starting at the eave, apply 36-inch-wide (914 mm) sheets of underlayment, overlapping successive sheets 19 inches (483 mm), and fastened sufficiently to hold in place. For roof slopes of four units vertical in 12 units horizontal (33-percent slope) or greater, underlayment shall be one layer applied in the following manner. Underlayment shall be applied shingle fashion, parallel to and starting from the eave and lapped 2 inches (51mm), fastened sufficiently to hold in place. End laps shall be offset by 6 feet (1829 mm).

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Sadly, it isn't enforced. In Fayette County, anyhow. I've engaged in that particular battle three times over the years, and was shot down by Code Enforcement on every occasion.

[Erby]

Screw em. I call it every time anyway, even in Fayette County.

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There is no roofing paper installed under the shingles at the low edge of the roof in some areas. Generally accepted nationwide building practices and most shingle manufacturers' installation instructions call for roofing paper to be installed all the way to the edge of the roof, OVER the metal drip edge at the bottom edge of the roof and UNDER the metal drip edge on rake edges. Consult shingle manufacturer for exact installation instructions and the effect this may have on the manufacturer's warranty. I recommend that roofing paper be installed in accordance with the shingle manufacturer's instructions.

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[kurt]

Screw em. I call it every time anyway, even in Fayette County.

That's my kinda inspector.......

I have, on occasion, even phrased it where I'll describe it similarly to Erby, and digress into an explanation allowing as to how ......

"This detail isn't enforced by the municipal inspectors, but I don't know why inasmuch as their job is to enforce the building code. You'll have to ask them why they don't enforce it."

[Marc]

Screw em. I call it every time anyway, even in Fayette County.

Good. In my area, AHJ's seem to have a mindset in which home inspectors are 'fake' inspectors, they're a joke and need to be 'straightened out' by the 'authorities' occasionally. I haven't engaged them in 8 years but I'm looking forward to the day that it happens.

Marc

[Jim Katen]

. . . I recommend that roofing paper be installed in accordance with the shingle manufacturer's instructions. . .

That seems like an understated way to phrase that particular recommendation. I mean, it's not possible to install roofing paper once the shingles are in place. So what you're really recommending is that all of the shingles be removed and new shingles be installed over roofing paper. Right?

A roofer reading your recommendation will know exactly what's involved, but a customer might not *get* the rather large scope of work that's implyed by that sentence.

[gtblum]

So, why is it so important to begin with? What's the difference if the underlayment is there or not? It seemed to work out ok without it in snow country.

For that matter, why after a hundred or so years without the newfangled Ice and Water, is that suddenly an absolute must have?

[Bain]

. . . I recommend that roofing paper be installed in accordance with the shingle manufacturer's instructions. . .

That seems like an understated way to phrase that particular recommendation. I mean, it's not possible to install roofing paper once the shingles are in place. So what you're really recommending is that all of the shingles be removed and new shingles be installed over roofing paper. Right?

A roofer reading your recommendation will know exactly what's involved, but a customer might not *get* the rather large scope of work that's implyed by that sentence.

Exactly. And therein lies the dilemma. "Screw 'em," sounds good, till one realizes that saying, "Screw 'em," means someone--builder/roofer/seller--is going to have to spend thousands of dollars to correct the deficiency.

Those thousands will not be eagerly parted with, and the builder/roofer/sometimes-the-seller will call the AHJ to settle the issue. The builder and roofer, of course, already know the answer. Ultimately, all the buyer and seller hear is that Code Enforcement overruled the HI, who apparently didn't know what he was talking about.

[kurt]

. . . I recommend that roofing paper be installed in accordance with the shingle manufacturer's instructions. . .

That seems like an understated way to phrase that particular recommendation. I mean, it's not possible to install roofing paper once the shingles are in place. So what you're really recommending is that all of the shingles be removed and new shingles be installed over roofing paper. Right?

A roofer reading your recommendation will know exactly what's involved, but a customer might not *get* the rather large scope of work that's implyed by that sentence.

Exactly. And therein lies the dilemma. "Screw 'em," sounds good, till one realizes that saying, "Screw 'em," means someone--builder/roofer/seller--is going to have to spend thousands of dollars to correct the deficiency.

Those thousands will not be eagerly parted with, and the builder/roofer/sometimes-the-seller will call the AHJ to settle the issue. The builder and roofer, of course, already know the answer. Ultimately, all the buyer and seller hear is that Code Enforcement overruled the HI, who apparently didn't know what he was talking about.

Depends on how it's phrased. When I've done similar comments......

1) I don't say "screw 'em"....I'd like to, but you know we can't.

2) I quote the code or spec so folks know I do know what I'm talking about

3) I allow to my customer how installing underlayment isn't likely to happen for all the reasons stated, and that it doesn't always make a difference in performance.

4) I often say......"I'm telling you this so if it comes up again, you heard it from me first". It helps reduce incidence of the "second guy in conundrum".

Like just about everything else in language, I try to keep things in context and perspective. It cuts down on confusion that way.

[kurt]

For that matter, why after a hundred or so years without the newfangled Ice and Water, is that suddenly an absolute must have?

Did people not care about water in their houses during ice dam conditions 100 years ago?

Folks have different expectations nowadays. Most people don't want water in their house. IWS takes care of that.

Also, water in a loose wood frame of old growth timber, no insulation, and no VR's, water didn't mean all that much except some stains and messed up plaster. Nowadays, it can mean moisture in the wall for months that rots the house to nothing in a few years.

[Rob Amaral]

A lady called me this winter and said she had terrible ice-dams. (I inspected her house in summer and warned her about this).

Hubster was 'away'.. she didn't know what to do..

I told her to 'turn the heat down' (wear a sweater-type temp) and prevent heat getting upstairs.. "See if that works for the short term"

It did...her ice-dams stopped leaking... Of course, that's not the cure...but it will get the lady thru the day..

In the old days, the upstairs were usually very cold... they did have ice-dams, but they had so little heat... (Of course 'they' was a very very widespread cohort of folks.. )

My mom used to sleep with her sisters in the same bed (3 in one bed) and they'd use hot water bottles to stay warm.. monster coal-fired 'one diffuser' furnace at the first floor..

[Ben H]

. . . I recommend that roofing paper be installed in accordance with the shingle manufacturer's instructions. . .

That seems like an understated way to phrase that particular recommendation. I mean, it's not possible to install roofing paper once the shingles are in place. So what you're really recommending is that all of the shingles be removed and new shingles be installed over roofing paper. Right?

A roofer reading your recommendation will know exactly what's involved, but a customer might not *get* the rather large scope of work that's implyed by that sentence.

I report it, and put a pic of it in the report. I also tell them that it is very unlikely that anyone will do anything about it now (because of the scope of the work).

I let them know that when the roof is replaced, they should prep themselves for some wood damage and budget for it's replacement. Most understand perfectly.

[hausdok]

Hi All,

I couldn't find that exact article in JLC, so I suppose it might have been in another publication such as Professional Roofing or something similar. I did find a pretty good article in the JLC archives from July of 2009 by Jim Bennette. Those of you who are JLCOnline Plus members should check it out. The article covers some of the stuff we've discussed/debated here before.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[hausdok]

GAF's take on racking and a uTube video below that discourages it.

[utube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0_FYB0j2aI" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="344">

OT - OF!!!

M.

[hausdok]

Discussion on Contractor Talk.

Discussion on The Family Handyman./url]

OT - OF!!!

M.

[blindrid]

When I was roofer in a former life we called it booking, and only did it on roof overs and only with 3 tabs. It always looked like crap, you could see every column where each installer varied the exposure. I would frequently double nail the overlapped tab since it was way faster than lifting it-I was a teenager, I didn't know any better and the boss didn't care.

So where are all your former roofs now? []

I agree, that roofer was in a rush and did it the quick and easy way. There could be hidden problems, like missing underlay, missing nails, nails too short, poor flashing, etc. All we can do now is warn the client of possible future problems.

My attempt is not to be a smart*** but hopefully a question taken correctly. Why would one "warn" the client of "could be" future hidden problems? Couldn't you make that claim on every roof?

Or are you specifically picking this one since the inspector does not like the way the roof was installed even though as acceptable method (to some anyway)?

[John Kogel]

When I was roofer in a former life we called it booking, and only did it on roof overs and only with 3 tabs. It always looked like crap, you could see every column where each installer varied the exposure. I would frequently double nail the overlapped tab since it was way faster than lifting it-I was a teenager, I didn't know any better and the boss didn't care.

So where are all your former roofs now? []

I agree, that roofer was in a rush and did it the quick and easy way. There could be hidden problems, like missing underlay, missing nails, nails too short, poor flashing, etc. All we can do now is warn the client of possible future problems.

My attempt is not to be a smart*** but hopefully a question taken correctly. Why would one "warn" the client of "could be" future hidden problems? Couldn't you make that claim on every roof?

No. Well you could say that for all roofs but that is not helpful to your clients.

Or are you specifically picking this one since the inspector does not like the way the roof was installed even though as acceptable method (to some anyway)?

Yes, I would say it for this roof, because of the way the shingles were laid. With those thicker shingles, you can't bend the top shingles up well enough to put the last nail in the underlying shingles properly. Especially with a big bulky nailgun and they all use nailguns.

Read the other posts. The racking methods is sometimes used for the thin 3 tab shingles.

A quote from Be's post #1. "You can see the break line every other shingle. All the install guides I read says to use a 4-5 staggered course, so you don't have a solid line that runs up the roof".