Pensacola Realtor Says Inspectors Pass The Buck

[kurt]

If you can't make the call on the condition of structures and systems you're inspecting, or can't quickly find credible sources to answer issues you may question, you shouldn't be charging people for your "service".

Yes. A hundred times yes.

I don't think the truth lay somewhere "between the extremes", because this isn't all that extreme a job.

We are supposed to figure stuff out. If we can't, we shouldn't be charging for the service.

I wish all folks could get that in their heads.

[mgbinspect]

Yes. A hundred times yes.

I don't think the truth lay somewhere "between the extremes", because this isn't all that extreme a job.

It always puts a smile on my face when Kurt does the "a hundred times yes" or "a 1000 times yes" thing. (Eureka moment in the lab...)

The "extreme" I was referring to was motive - or lack of it.

It seems that guys refer a lot of things to specialists because:

1. They actually should (job well done).

2. They're lazy (an embarrassment to the profession)

3. They're ignorant, but don't realize they could have the answer in minutes. (never heard of the phrase "self-taught")

4. The only phrase they know how to robotically type is "consult with a licensed ... blah blah blah, prior to closing." (I can't stand the phrase "prior to closing." - talk about canned horse manure.)

Regarding #4. The attorney style CYA babble might be more an East Coast disease, which I used to be mildly guilty of. I've never been in the habit of calling for everything to be checked out by a "licensed whatever, prior to closing.", but I did write like a stuffed shirt, until Chad set me free by hitting me squarely between the eyes with this phrase, which I now always keep in mind:

"...you're an easy going guy, loosen up on your tight ass white middle class vernacular.... I think you should write friendlier, ..."

Thank you Chad - a 1000 times thank you... [:-graduat (and thanks for the eureka moment mantra, Kurt.)

At any rate, maybe the best way to sum up the challenge is this: If you don't KNOW EXACTLY why you're referring something to a specialist, you probably have no business doing so. After all, if you're going to direct your client to spend more money for informational puproses, make certain there's some genuine value in doing so.

[Les]

I have always known this work is all about thinking. It is not about knowing everythiing. We all get caught up in that mode at times. It sure as heck helps if you know which way is up on a stud 'tho.

I'm waiting.

[John Kogel]

I have always known this work is all about thinking. It is not about knowing everythiing. We all get caught up in that mode at times. It sure as heck helps if you know which way is up on a stud 'tho.

I'm waiting.

I see studs nailed in upside down all the time. They fit better that way. []

[Jim Morrison]

That Realtor's article was tripe, but you can hardly blame him for thinking that way. Some knuckleheaded iteration of the meaningless phrase 'should be evaluated and repaired/replaced as needed by a qualified specialist' appears WAY too often in home inspection reports.

I don't let it bother me much, though. Like Professor Kibbell and a lot of other folks, that's one of the reasons I get away with charging what I do. I'm pretty sure it aint because I'm charming.

[Terence McCann]

I fail to see what all the fuss is about. On 99% of the inspections I'm on I find problems that will take a contractor to fix. On a few homes, not that many really, I find foundation problems that I feel needs further evaluation by a stamped engineer.

Found water leak at X. Call a plumber to repair. Found horizontal crack that runs X feet on North basement wall. Call yada yada. So what? I'm not in the business of repairing problems that I find or spec'ing repairs.

Am I missing something?

To me it sounds like the OP has his panties in a knot because it equates to additional work on his part.

[allseason]

If you see someone with a flat tire by the side of the road you can tell them the tire is flat. If you see a nail in the tire you can reasonably assume the nail has flattened the tire. You tell them the nail flattened the tire and they need to have someone who fixes flat tires fix the flat tire. They may also continue to drive on a flat tire.

It the tire is flat you can tell them the tire is flat. If you see no cause you tell them to get someone who can take it apart and figure out why the tire is flat. They may either fix the flat tire or drive on it as it is.

I will tell clients why things do not work or how they should work or what course of action needs to take place. But I will still tell them to have that trade look at it. If you have a water stain in a ceiling under a bathroom you can reasonably assume that somewhere in that bathroom is the source of the leak. What do you tell them based on what you see? It's the loose toilet, fix the loose toilet. Homeowner moves in, installs wax ring and home depot johnny kit. Ceiling still leaks from a bad flange connection. Now what? You knew the toilet was loose but you could not see into the floor or ceiling.What's the call at the inspection?

Yes we tell them what is wrong and how to make it right, I do not dispute that and some of you or us may know more about some or all things than others but I do not see any injustice in making comments regarding evaluation by those trades where needed.

[Jim Katen]

I fail to see what all the fuss is about. On 99% of the inspections I'm on I find problems that will take a contractor to fix. On a few homes, not that many really, I find foundation problems that I feel needs further evaluation by a stamped engineer.

Found water leak at X. Call a plumber to repair. Found horizontal crack that runs X feet on North basement wall. Call yada yada. So what? I'm not in the business of repairing problems that I find or spec'ing repairs.

Am I missing something?

To me it sounds like the OP has his panties in a knot because it equates to additional work on his part.

We're talking about inspectors who routinely recommend further evaluation of every damn system in the house whether there's a problem or not. If the roof has fist-size holes in it, these inspectors write "Licensed roofer to evaluate." If the roof has moss growing on it, they write, "Licensed roofer to evaluate." If the roof is just fine, with no visible defects, they write, "Licensed roofer to evaluate."

When challenged about this, they invariably fall back on the observation that, "Inspectors are only generalists."

These are the same goofballs who write things like, "Roofing: Appears to be tile." Or, "Sink: Appears to be leaking."

The underlying issue is that they don't want to take responsibility for any observation or evaluation of anything in the house. If you asked them the color of the sky, they'd say, "Appears to be blue." And then add, just in case, "Licensed meteorologist to evaluate."

Jim Katen, Oregon

[Erby]

I hate that "further evaluation" crap and stay as far away from it as I can. They hired ME to evaluate it.

Like above, it's flat. Fix it or run on a flat tire.

Like these two pictures. No need for further evaluation. Just have the damn roof fixed.

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When I have to it's:

Here's the problems I see.

Here's why they are a problem

Talk with a xxxxxx contractor to determine all necessary repairs & best repair method, to estimate costs, and to perform any repairs deemed necessary.

-

[Jim Katen]

If you see someone with a flat tire by the side of the road you can tell them the tire is flat. If you see a nail in the tire you can reasonably assume the nail has flattened the tire. You tell them the nail flattened the tire and they need to have someone who fixes flat tires fix the flat tire. They may also continue to drive on a flat tire.

The Pensacola realtor is talking about inspectors who look at a car with four fully inflated tires, finds one with uneven wear on the treads, and says, "Have a tire specialist evaluate the tires."

It the tire is flat you can tell them the tire is flat. If you see no cause you tell them to get someone who can take it apart and figure out why the tire is flat. They may either fix the flat tire or drive on it as it is.

What about the inspectors who look at the flat tire and say, "The tires are in a non-standard condition. Have a tire specialist evaluate." That kind of reporting is rampant.

I will tell clients why things do not work or how they should work or what course of action needs to take place. But I will still tell them to have that trade look at it. If you have a water stain in a ceiling under a bathroom you can reasonably assume that somewhere in that bathroom is the source of the leak. What do you tell them based on what you see? It's the loose toilet, fix the loose toilet.

I think only a stupid inspector would say that.

Homeowner moves in, installs wax ring and home depot johnny kit. Ceiling still leaks from a bad flange connection. Now what? You knew the toilet was loose but you could not see into the floor or ceiling.What's the call at the inspection?

How about, have a plumber track down the source of the leak and fix it?

Yes we tell them what is wrong and how to make it right, I do not dispute that and some of you or us may know more about some or all things than others but I do not see any injustice in making comments regarding evaluation by those trades where needed.

I think you're missing the point entirely. The issue is inspectors who routinely and by design, refer to specialists for *every significant system* in the house, whether there's an observable problem or not. These are, invariably, the same inspectors who downplay serious problems and pass the buck to a specialist.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[allseason]

Jim

I did not mean that I would tell the client the loose toilet was the cause and the easy fix, I meant to imply that hasty decisions may lead to poor conclusions. This is not my approach. I make them aware of conditions and possible or obvious causes, it was meant to look like a poor decision. I'm afraid that was a poor example. My point was as you say it is a situation in which a plumber needs to be contacted to determine the root cause.

I agree with you that it is convenient for people to simply state something doesn't look right so all of it may be wrong and hand it off to someone else. This implies that they cannot differentiate between what is correct and what is not. I am not in favor of inspectors recommending further evaluation for any blip on the screen. I do not use the word appears, with the exception of determining the age of female party guests.

[gtblum]

Who reports what and how they defer whatever to whomever is nowhere near as important as cutting the heads off of snakes like that guy and the rest like him.

Once that nonsense is stopped and the hiring decision is put in the hands of the consumer without the influence of the person who stands to lose the most as a result of a home inspection, the playing field will level itself. Just like it does in any other occupation.

If you're the most knowlegable inspector who ever walked the face of the earth, and you know every answer to correcting every defect you ever see, it means nothing if you're sitting home because a used lumber peddler is afraid of you and bad mouthing you to perspective clients.

The bottom line here, is that every time one of these pigs attempts to foist this crap, they should be challenged, shut down, and exposed for who they are. I'd say focusing on that part of this thread should be the first consideration.

Thanks again to Mike for posting his comment. Inspectors as a group, should learn to focus on more of that kind of behavoir. That's the kind of thing the public needs to made aware of. They'll figure out who's good and who isn't. Just like we all do when we hire others.

[mgbinspect]

I can't agree with that.

The biggest single reason TIJ exists, as I understand it, is to promote home inspecting, as a profession. What we're talking about here is the difference between sounding professional and being professional.

I think a great example is a doctor. The knowledge base of the average doctor is astounding to me. It's so obvious that when a doctor isn't seeing patients, he's reading and studying to stay on top of what's happening in medicine. How often do they really feel the need to refer us to a specialist? They're a consistently professional and respectable gang.

Why shouldn't home inspectors be that consistently competent? If you think about it, most of the time, when a doctor consults with you, the information he offers you is far less based upon what he learned through his years in college than what he's learning every day, by keeping his ear to the rail of medicine. And, thankfully, he only encourages us to spend money on a specialist, when it's dire or he's out of ideas.

It might be GREAT to be the upper crust of service and knowledge, but accepting the fact that there is no real bottom to the barrel and merely hoping to benefit from that reality doesn't do the profession any favors.

It just goes without saying that if we concentrate on what is best for the profession, it's going to be self-incriminating - me included.

[Bain]

Let's face it, there are a lot of hacks running around calling themselves inspector dudes, when in fact they're much more suited to being shoe clerks. THOSE are the people who constantly defer to others, and it's because they DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY'RE DOING.

I was at a CE seminar recently, and overheard a guy who works in my area say that he loves to find ONE torn shingle so he can recommend a full evaluation of the roof by a professional to deflect liability away from himself. I stood there listening, and wanted to barf. THOSE are the people the realtor in the article is talking about, and he's not completely off base.

Of course, nobody knows everything. I call people I trust occasionally if I not sure about something, and they do likewise with me. But that doesn't cost my customer anything, and everybody's better off because of it. I remember our very own Yoda, Jim K., posting a photo once of a radiant-floor thermostat accompanied by, "Here's the control module, but I can't figure out how to turn the damn thing on." But he didn't defer to a specialist. He figured it out.

[Terence McCann]

I fail to see what all the fuss is about. On 99% of the inspections I'm on I find problems that will take a contractor to fix. On a few homes, not that many really, I find foundation problems that I feel needs further evaluation by a stamped engineer.

Found water leak at X. Call a plumber to repair. Found horizontal crack that runs X feet on North basement wall. Call yada yada. So what? I'm not in the business of repairing problems that I find or spec'ing repairs.

Am I missing something?

To me it sounds like the OP has his panties in a knot because it equates to additional work on his part.

We're talking about inspectors who routinely recommend further evaluation of every damn system in the house whether there's a problem or not.

I've re-read the OP a few times and I'm not getting that message from it Jim (although it may be what the discussion has morphed into). I'm getting the message that the OP is upset that the home inspector comes into the home, finds something wrong, then defers to a licensed contractor. He thinks it would be better to cut the home inspector out and just bring in all the individual trades to go through the home.

QUOTE:

In order to properly inspect a property, one needs to hold a license in electrical, plumbing, roofing, structural engineering, pool/spa, and so on. A "home inspector" may charge from $100 to around $400. An electrician, plumber, roofer, etc. are each paid by their service call, or by the inspection fee, usually chargeing $50 to $75.

My suggestion to the National Association of Realtors, the Florida Association of Realtors, the City of Pensacola, Escambia County, the Pensacola Association of Realtors and members is to implement an amenity inspection process in lieu of the GPHI (general practitioner home inspector/inspection).

The amenity inspection will give the facts to the buyer without having to pay a home inspector $300, then having to pay a licensed amenity inspector $75 more.

I can't speak for other areas of the country but around here you're not getting any trade to come out to the job site, inspect the system and then write a written report for 75 clams. To get all of the trades out, to inspect their areas would be a hell of a lot more than $300.00. Based on his logic you should bring in a structural engineer on every home sale.

The real problem with this individual is that he doesn't see the value of a home inspector (or perhaps just sour grapes) but that's another kettle of fish.

[inspector57]

If tests were harder and inspectors were required to know everything under the sun, I think about 90 percent of HI's would have never pursued the occupationin the first place.

Whether the state sets the bar too low or not, lots of guys should not have become inspectors in the first place.

My clients hire me to tell them what is wrong with the house.

If an inspector won't because he is gutless or can't because he is not knowledgeable it is the inspector's fault, not the client's and not the realtor's. Shame on the inspector for representing himself to be a professional willing to accept money for a service that he does not provide.

[Jim Katen]

. . . I've re-read the OP a few times and I'm not getting that message from it Jim (although it may be what the discussion has morphed into). I'm getting the message that the OP is upset that the home inspector comes into the home, finds something wrong, then defers to a licensed contractor. He thinks it would be better to cut the home inspector out and just bring in all the individual trades to go through the home.

QUOTE:

In order to properly inspect a property, one needs to hold a license in electrical, plumbing, roofing, structural engineering, pool/spa, and so on. A "home inspector" may charge from $100 to around $400. An electrician, plumber, roofer, etc. are each paid by their service call, or by the inspection fee, usually chargeing $50 to $75.

My suggestion to the National Association of Realtors, the Florida Association of Realtors, the City of Pensacola, Escambia County, the Pensacola Association of Realtors and members is to implement an amenity inspection process in lieu of the GPHI (general practitioner home inspector/inspection).

The amenity inspection will give the facts to the buyer without having to pay a home inspector $300, then having to pay a licensed amenity inspector $75 more. . . .

He's not talking about getting tradesmen in to repair stuff. He's pissed off that, after hiring a home inspector, his clients have to then have all of these other things "evaluated" by specialists.

He suggests the "amenity inspection" thing because he's been "trained," by inspectors that he's been exposed to, that in order to properly inspect an electrical system, plumbing system, roof, or structure, you have to be an electrician, a plumber, a roofer, or an engineer. The inspectors he's met have have impressed it upon him. He's just drawing the logical conclusion that follows from such a flawed premise.

This isn't new. I hear it often from realtors and tradesmen. They see pass-the-buck, CYA reports from home inspectors and wonder, with all that buck-passing and butt-covering, what the heck the inspector actually did. When that's what you're exposed to, it isn't unreasonable to think about eliminating the middle man and heading straight for the folks who are willing to actually give answers.

I can't count the number of times I've had to interrupt agents (ones I've never met before) who are in the midst of explaining what I do to customers. "Jim will go through the house and whenever he finds something that doesn't look right, he'll recommend we get a pro out to look at it. I have a list of pros that I work with regularly and . . ."

"Excuse me, but that's not how I work. When I find a problem, I tell you what to do about it. I don't usually recommend 'getting a pro' to look at it."

The agents always stumble and explain that that's how all of the "other" inspectors work. They're put off by a home inspector who actually calls problems by their name and makes specific recommendations. Some of the agents really like that and some really hate it. But it speaks to the idea that the main mode of most inspectors out there is to pass the buck and cover the butt.

With that paradigm running rampant, it's no wonder that some pointy headed moron in Pensacola thinks that our service is a rip off. As Walter Jowers would say, we've done it to our own selves.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[kurt]

............They're put off by a home inspector who actually calls problems by their name and makes specific recommendations.

Yes, I know those realtors.

[Jim Katen]

Who reports what and how they defer whatever to whomever is nowhere near as important as cutting the heads off of snakes like that guy and the rest like him.

No, it's not. Because guys like him are created by poor inspectors. Pensacola didn't just decide on this idea in a vacuum. He experienced a bunch of ripoff inspectors and saw them for what they were. Frankly, if my brother were buying a house and could only choose between a PTB CYA inspector, I'd tell him to go directly to the tradesmen as well.

Once that nonsense is stopped and the hiring decision is put in the hands of the consumer without the influence of the person who stands to lose the most as a result of a home inspection, the playing field will level itself. Just like it does in any other occupation.

I'm afraid not. Have you ever seen the market research done on this subject? Every customer loves their inspector and their inspection report. The dissatisfaction doesn't come until years down the road when serious problems occur, or when they sell the house and serious problems are revealed. By that time, it's generally too late to do anything about the poor inspector. Market forces aren't particularly effective in weeding out poor inspectors, at least no in the short term.

If you're the most knowlegable inspector who ever walked the face of the earth, and you know every answer to correcting every defect you ever see, it means nothing if you're sitting home because a used lumber peddler is afraid of you and bad mouthing you to perspective clients.

Again, I disagree. There are lots of successful inspectors out there who eschew the realtor loop. If you want to be successful in this business, you have to be more than the most knowlegable inspector in the world, you also have to be a decent businessman (woman) ((person)). If someone isn't succeeding in this business, it isn't because of the big bad realtors.

The bottom line here, is that every time one of these pigs attempts to foist this crap, they should be challenged, shut down, and exposed for who they are. I'd say focusing on that part of this thread should be the first consideration.

Disagree again. We should focus on cleaning up our own house and let the realtors worry about theirs.

Thanks again to Mike for posting his comment. Inspectors as a group, should learn to focus on more of that kind of behavoir. That's the kind of thing the public needs to made aware of. They'll figure out who's good and who isn't. Just like we all do when we hire others.

Mikes comments were great. And I'm sure that all 20 people who read them will be profoundly affected by them.

Bickering with agents won't change a damn thing. Cleaning up our own ranks will.

I know that everyone loves to call this thing we do a "profession." But, you know, it really isn't. Not yet. Not till we make it one.

In the meantime, it's mostly a bunch of yahoos.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[Terence McCann]

A slight detour Jim, you state:

"Excuse me, but that's not how I work. When I find a problem, I tell you what to do about it. I don't usually recommend 'getting a pro' to look at it."

Can you describe what you do/say when you uncover a problem that needs to be addressed? Do you plan/spec how the repair should be carried out so that the client can take your specs out to bid?

[Jim Katen]

A slight detour Jim, you state:

"Excuse me, but that's not how I work. When I find a problem, I tell you what to do about it. I don't usually recommend 'getting a pro' to look at it."

Can you describe what you do/say when you uncover a problem that needs to be addressed? Do you plan/spec how the repair should be carried out so that the client can take your specs out to bid?

Have the furnace replaced.

Hire a roofer to replace the shingles.

Ask your electrician to replace the FPE electrical panel.

Replace the cat-pee-soaked carpets, padding, and underlayment in grandma's room.

Hire an engineer to design and oversee repairs to the foundation.

Hire a roofer to install proper sidewall flashing. Do no accept repairs based on the surface application of caulk.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[Terence McCann]

A slight detour Jim, you state:

"Excuse me, but that's not how I work. When I find a problem, I tell you what to do about it. I don't usually recommend 'getting a pro' to look at it."

Can you describe what you do/say when you uncover a problem that needs to be addressed? Do you plan/spec how the repair should be carried out so that the client can take your specs out to bid?

Have the furnace replaced.

Hire a roofer to replace the shingles.

Ask your electrician to replace the FPE electrical panel.

Replace the cat-pee-soaked carpets, padding, and underlayment in grandma's room.

Hire an engineer to design and oversee repairs to the foundation.

Hire a roofer to install proper sidewall flashing. Do no accept repairs based on the surface application of caulk.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

Thanks Jim.

[mgbinspect]

That's pretty much the way I call for repairs, as well - pretty direct, unless I don't know what's best. One of the problems we deal with is that often, the licensed profession tradesman is the reason we're calling for a repair in the first place, so we need to take a stand regarding the repair.

[kurt]

Yeah, a bunch of yahoos is closer to truth than profession.

But, I'm going to keep thinking and acting like it's a profession, and I'm going to keep calling it one.

I'm going to keep (pretty much) ignoring realtors and telling folks what they ought to do.

And I'm going to hope for more jobs like Jimmy had today. Those are what make it feel like a profession.

[hoosier inspector]

This forum has helped me technically more times than I can count. But it is discussions such as this which help me examine the value I provide my customer, not just the image. Thanks guys, good stuff.