Infrared: A New Versatile Diagnostic Tool

[davidlord]

I will say that my inspection times have been on the increase since I got the IR cam.

By the way the battery run time on the Fluke is proving to not be an issue.

[kurt]

Thanks David. I'm leaning toward the same camera. I'm not convinced that anything more than this camera offers is necessary.

S'funny thing......

So, my friend and neighbor Michael Thomas posts a couple notes up that he just got a new camera. I see him this evening while riding my bike; I chase him down just as he's picking up the lovely Irene (his wife) from downtown Evanston.

I pull up next to his window, he rolls the window down, and I excitedly ask him "Hey, what camera did you get?" He looks straight ahead w/a dull stare, like I caught him inflagrante, and sez "later, later". I don't quite understand, so I ask again, and he gets this minor key glare (in flagrante delecto), and sez a little more forcefully "later..."

Hey Mikey. Does the lovely Irene know about the camera? [:-dev3][:-bonc01]

[randynavarro]

Ok. So the latest word on my street says to wait til fall when prices will really drop again.

[kurt]

My current strategy is to call the folks getting into the business that have run out and bought IR cameras because they think it's the thing they have to do, and get them on ridealongs for projects where I really need IR.

Very cost effective.

[qhinspect]

Originally posted by davidlord

I will say that my inspection times have been on the increase since I got the IR cam.

By the way the battery run time on the Fluke is proving to not be an issue.

Same here. Inspections time has increase a little and the battery life doesn't even come close to an issue for residential inspections.

I do feel better about inspecting with the camera. It's interesting to indirectly see where the headers are over windows, studs are located, temperature of breakers and what they go to and cannot leave out finding a problem and being able to show it visually in the report.

[mthomas1]

Kurt,

Kurt,

Naw...no financial secrets in my marriage, I was on the bluetooth headset trying to book a job with a price shopper who cold-called off the web site - then put me on hold - at the same time my wife was trying to call me to discover why I was not there yet to pick her up - just too many balls in the air and no time to explain what was happening. Sorry if it appeared mysterious/impolite/brushoffish - it was all just to much at multi at once for my tired old mind.

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If I'm available I'm always up for a look at an interesting property, and a chance to learn more about how the camera actually behaves.

[Chris Bernhardt]

So what happens to some poor fool who's average inspection time (pre-IR) is more like, oh say, 5 hours?

A camera lets say is $5000 - $6000. Your time is worth say $50 - $100 an hour or more. If employing an IR cam in your biz increases your average inspection time 30% and you are already working at your peak number of jobs per week, guess just what happened?

Your profitability just went down 30%. In dollars perhaps more than $24,000 a year. The cost of the camera is nothing.

It's not using the IR cam that is adding to my time so much, it's all the stuff I have learned and am learning since using it. I have found a number of things that I would have missed. Some that I couldn't find anyway but more concerning things that I could have found if I had known I should be looking and checking.

The cost of the camera represents the cost of education. With the $5000 - $6000 in educational costs you will be performing a more comprehensive visual inspection because you now know more about houses and how to figure them out.

Chris, Oregon

[kurt]

Excellent point.

The cost of the camera is nothing. The cost of using it is intense.

It's becoming very apparent that I might have to have 2 levels of inspection, something that I've always considered idiotic.

One would need to explain that the chance of me finding some item that I wouldn't have found otherwise is very slim, but a possibility. Explain that for me to walk around and scan every surface of a house adds a couple hours to the job. Explain to folks that if they want the whole house scanned, it's another $250-450.

I think folks would go for it. The problem in the future is all the noobs that don't understand the fundamentals of profit margin (nicely explained by Chris) walking around and doing IR as a normal procedure in a home inspection.

It could get really, really stupid.

Of course, things have already gotten really, really stupid in the form of professional society proliferation, folks that had never heard of home inspection 5 years ago now running HI "universities", and guys doing $75 checklist inspections (yes, there's someone in Chicago doing $75 inspections), so I guess it's business as usual.

[Chris Bernhardt]

It's becoming very apparent that I might have to have 2 levels of inspection, something that I've always considered idiotic.

I'm facing the same thing. Either up my rates significantly or break the inspection into two levels. I can't sustain the rate I charge now for the service that I now provide even without IR. Thanks to TIJ.

Even accounting for the bad market here, my profitability is plummeting.

Chris, Oregon

[randynavarro]

Yes.

Different levels of inspection service is what I'm formulating.

Level 1 - Basic inspection (trouble here is defining what "basic" is)

Level 2 - Adding IR, full photo essay, blower door test, or some combination

Level 3 - Adding full energy rating, duct leakage testing etc. etc.

[Chris Bernhardt]

I'm leaning to just raising my prices and finding another business not real estate dependent to stablize the boat.

I just like doing residential full home inspections only. I hate commercial stuff and apartments etc.

It's never made sense to me to offer a bunch of add on services and try to sell those. Maybe if I only scheduled them as fill in work between inspections or when an inspection is canceled something like that.

Chris, Oregon

[kurt]

Well, I just did my first HI w/an IR camera. Michael lent me his TiR for the gig this afternoon.

The house is known to have multiple moisture issues in multiple locations, so it was a good opportunity to take a test drive to see what's what. Obviously, there was no "analysis", but I was able to see how water intrusion shows up on camera.

Jeez, it adds an hour to the gig without hardly trying. This is going to have to be a very disciplined approach, or it will sink the boat.

[qhinspect]

I would think of it like it was your first home inspection. It gets easier and faster the more you do. [:-magnify

O that learning curve.[:-weepn]

What's the chances of getting some infrared smilies to choose from?[^]

[Bill Kibbel]

Originally posted by qhinspect

What's the chances of getting some infrared smilies to choose from?[^]

[qhinspect]

Originally posted by Chris Bernhardt

I'm leaning to just raising my prices and finding another business not real estate dependent to stablize the boat.

I just like doing residential full home inspections only. I hate commercial stuff and apartments etc.

It's never made sense to me to offer a bunch of add on services and try to sell those. Maybe if I only scheduled them as fill in work between inspections or when an inspection is canceled something like that.

Chris, Oregon

I’m finding that I can not raise my prices just yet. I’m having to introduce the ir camera and explain what it does (since the Realtors know nothing about it). Normally I can get 4 to 8 Realtors at a time. Once they see how "cool" this camera is and what it can do, I hoping to be able to raise the prices.

Getting more education and getting the information on my website is in the process.

[Chris Bernhardt]

I’m finding that I can not raise my prices just yet. I’m having to introduce the ir camera and explain what it does (since the Realtors know nothing about it). Normally I can get 4 to 8 Realtors at a time. Once they see how "cool" this camera is and what it can do, I hoping to be able to raise the prices.

The problem is IR is not conclusive evidence of an important problem. To use it usefully and intelligently in the scope of a home inspection you are forced to do a lot more considering, confirming and thinking things out.

The discoveries I have made and continue making have given me reason to be more comprehensive in the visual part of the inspection. Thats where all the time for me is getting burned up.

There's no turning back. Even if I stopped using IR, my inspection time would not go back down.

I'm warning you, if you get a camera and use it, your time will go up even on inspections where you don't use the camera!

Chris, Oregon

[Brent]

You guys talk about cameras, do your home work even though they are a lot cheaper the pix's are a lot less and you have to get up close to get the right information. Just because you have a camera doesn’t mean you know how to use it. It has taken me years to get where I am, I image industrial & log homes. I seen too many talk about getting a camera, just because they have one does not put them in the big leagues.

[Brad Manor]

Originally posted by Brent

You guys talk about cameras, do your home work even though they are a lot cheaper the pix's are a lot less and you have to get up close to get the right information. Just because you have a camera doesn’t mean you know how to use it. It has taken me years to get where I am, I image industrial & log homes. I seen too many talk about getting a camera, just because they have one does not put them in the big leagues.

As sort of a corollary to what Brent said, I have seen quite a few thermographers decide they are home inspectors as the industrial market softened. Knowing how to interpret a thermal image doesn't necessarily make one an expert on building science. Finding the thermal anomaly is only part of the equation. We inspectors make our living on the "Hows, Whys and What Nows"

As someone who had a few years experience with infrared long before becoming an HI, I see IR as another tool in my bag that helps get me to my ultimate goal: identifying problems. At the end of the day, thermal imaging is just another ingredient in the soup.

-Brad

[Rob Amaral]

I accompanied a FLIR-trained Level 3 thermographer the other day on a moisture-intrusion inspection. It was great. Temp outdoors was about 8 degrees and it was before the sun came up. A great way to see the temp differentials. The camera solved some major confusion the building owner was dealing with.

[Jeff Beck]

Last year the ASHI Great Lakes Chapter had their Spring meeting in Grand Rapids, MI and the Sunday Speaker was Steve Ramos. He was (is) the HI with a TV show on the Better Homes and Garden Channel.

He gave a good presentation on using IR in his business and as I recall made the point that IR has had a definite positive impact on his revenue.

If I recall correctly he somewhat ducked the question of Standards of Practice, which for those of us in states with HI laws is still a big question mark.

FLIR had arranged for Steve to do the presentation and I believe paid for his expenses to Grand Rapids. It is safe to assume that he is a compensated representative of FLIR.

The regional FLIR rep was also in attendance. I asked him how many HIs he was aware of that had successfully incorporated IR into their businesses. After a little probing and conversational dancing we got to the point that most of their camera owners are using the camera outside of and in addition to their home inspection businesses. He mentioned finding leaks in flat roofs, working with builders as part of ResNet ratings and so on.

I agree with Kurt, et al that someday this technology may be a standard element of our business.

I guess the question we have to ask ourselves is how much time and money are you willing to put into helping a new technology become part of our industry (as opposed to another tool)?

Whenever a new piece of technology comes along the early adopters spend as much time and money selling the concept of the technology as they do the benefits which adds to the cost of adopting the technology.

We used to joke "How can you identify a Pilgrim?" Answer: "They're the ones with arrows in their backs!"

The ResNet guys that I know all use IR technology but will admit that in most residential audits it's as much for show as it is for actual detection.

Given the down housing market, I think that the time and money is better spent in marketing our businesses rather than a new technology.

The first time house buyer who is bidding on a foreclosure might have the largest benefit from an IR scan but will they pay for it? At least right now, I think the answer to that is: no they won't.

JMHO

Jeff Beck

Foresight Inspection Service LLC

[Chris Bernhardt]

Given the down housing market, I think that the time and money is better spent in marketing our businesses rather than a new technology.

I waited about a year before I overtly started advertising IR's benefit in performing home inspections. I wouldn't be advertising it at all except the word got around on it's own and I gained double the number of agents that I normally do and in the worst year since I have been in business.

In the last year, every time I had an opporturnity, I have IR'ed, moisture metered (with several different meters) and hygrometer'd every moisture issue I can get involved with, besides conducting my own experiments, to find I can pretty well tell you whats going on with confidence without getting invasive.

99% of the time I found the problem visually, but the tools help me determine if it's a big problem, little problem or no problem at all, and they continually help me improve my skills visually.

Inspection tools help me close the question, not raise it, and I think that gets noticed and is translating into more business.

Chris, Oregon

[Herb Scott]

Chris, Either you have more ethical realtors in your market or I'm just not doing it right. I also waited about a year , took the training (Level II cert) got familiar with the camera. Than, after 7 years of not even entering a realtor's office I booked and did 9 presentations on IR. I quickly remembered why I stopped marketing to realtors. The presentations went well, I didn't flub anything. But the snickering , the looks, the comments in the parking lot, ("Hope I never see you on one of my listings") were all very discouraged. These are the people who are supposed to be working for their clients. I'm already known as "realtor unfriendly" so that didn't help, but they looked at me like I had two heads. The last thing they wanted to hear about was a tool that would no longer limit the inspector to only what we can see with the human eye.

Hope your doing better than me at selling IR to agents.

Herb Scott

[Chris Bernhardt]

The last thing they wanted to hear about was a tool that would no longer limit the inspector to only what we can see with the human eye.

I hear you. I ran into one agent that I remember in particular that had that reaction. What I noticed was that it is the old farts that tend to have that reaction.

But personally I think the problem is in the way that IR is being packaged and sold as a separate service. I think that branding rather than marketing is a more effective way to go at it.

Chris, Oregon

["Tommy" Decebal Adamesc]

I think so too. We should offer infrared thermography or energy audits as a separate service and that would make it possible to charge more for it too rather than another free service... [:-weepn].

[Herb Scott]

I agree, I only offer it as a separate service. The truth is that many times of the year in many parts of the country there will be less than ideal conditions to do a good / proper building envelope Infrared evaluation. Any thing less than an 18 degree F delta T (difference between the interior temperature and the exterior temperature) and you risk not seeing something that is there and / or misinterpreting what you see. I'm not saying that you cant see things with less than an 18 degree difference but if there is , you better have an explanation / disclaimer in your report. Some times this can be adjusted for by controlling the interior temp. But your best bet is to do the IR evaluation early in the morning. Like 6 or 7 AM. Not exactly the best time for most home owners, buyers, or agents. After having owned the camera for about a year and getting the necessary IR education (Level II Certification) I've come to believe that this is not an "Inspection tool" but it is a tool that can under the right conditions, used by someone with the proper training and a a very good knowledge of construction, it can be used for inspections.

Herb Scott