Infrared: A New Versatile Diagnostic Tool

[kurt]

Okee Doke....

It's just so rare to find another wind freak in the HI biz, I had to say something.

Short story on IR; I don't think it is something that can be plugged into a home inspection. I've spent a hundred or so hours talking to the Flir guys, playing w/the equipment, & edging into some classwork.

It should only be offered as a stand alone analytical service; too complicated to try & schedule it into a home inspection paradigm.

There's thermography, and there's guy's running around w/expensive equipment thinking they're actually doing something. One needs to differentiate between them before they get into IR.

[Richard Stanley]

I've been using the Flir B-cam for a few months. I like it alot. To put the experience into a single sentence - I miss less now than I probably did before I started using it.

[kurt]

Interesting.

What are you finding now that you missed before?

[Richard Stanley]

Wet walls, ceilings. Missing insulation. I haven't got into the electrical and mechanical uses yet because I am not confident about what I see for sure. Can you find thes things without the camera? Sure? Like for walls, etc, the moisure may be beyond the surface at the time you do the inspection and not have created a stain. You could probably scan the entire house surfaces with a moisture meter and eventually find the discrepancy - maybe. You can scan the whole thing in just minutes with the thermal. Saves a lot of time and is , in my opinion, more thorough. Once you find the anomaly with the camera, it is simple to confirm the moisture presence. As for the missing insulation, or I should say, the indication of little or no insulation, there are places that you just can't get to. I have also learned that not every wet wall or ceiling has a stain. Of course, for it to show up on the thermal, it has to have a temperature variance from the surrounding area, ie; example - insulation could be wet, but, the moisture could be the same temp as the rest of the area. That would not show up on the thermal. This could happen if the roof leaked a week or so before you inspected and it hasn't rained since. Before I purchased the camera, I took a 1 day course and got quite a bit out of it. I intend to take the building science course sometime soon.

[kurt]

Continued interest w/a little devil's advocacy....

If one looks for the usual stuff that causes roofs to leak, how does IR improve on that? One still has to look, don't they?

And, the temperature variance thing is most troubling; how does one know for sure? I ask, because I don't think one can know. Something so simple as time of day or inclination of the sun could completely skew the findings.

IOW, one could walk right by a problem with or without a camera & not know anything, no?

I'm still trying to figure out how thermography & home inspection scheduling can be reconciled; the thermographers I've talked to stress stuff like this; one can't just go to a house @ a specific time & have the conditions always available for satisfactory scans.

Or, can they?

[Jim Katen]

Originally posted by Richard Stanley

I've been using the Flir B-cam for a few months. I like it alot. To put the experience into a single sentence - I miss less now than I probably did before I started using it.

Dammit!

PE has the B-cam for $6,500. That's affordable. I'm seriously considering buying one.

Why did you decide on the B-cam instead of one of the other models?

What does the B-cam *not* do that you wish it did do? (and that a more expensive camera might do for you)

How many pictures can it store?

Does it come with some kind of reporting software?

How's Flir support been?

How often do you have to have that sucker serviced/calibrated?

Dammit! Dammit! Dammit!

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[Richard Stanley]

Time of day can certainly make a difference if a roof is being scanned which is why they say that the best time to do that is right after sundown. That is when the variance is going to show up. I suspect the same thing might be true for exterior walls especially on the side(s) with sun exposure. It doesn't matter that much, if at all, on the interior which is where I mostly use it.

Yes, you still have to look. It just makes the looking a lot easier and quicker.

I was also a skeptic for a couple of years after I first heard about them. Then I changed my mind, since I like to try new toys. It is just like any other tool in that once you have usd it for awhile, you get used to it and find more ways to use it and understand what it is telling you.

Another use, at least here, is air ducts in attics. You can pick up air leaks instantly with a quick scan. Speaking of air systems, it will give an accurate reading on air temp at ducts and return plenums. The only thing you have to aware of there is the reflectivity of the foil backed ducts. I tried infrared thermometers before and the readings were not accurate when double checked with a probe thermometer.

I mentioned that I had not used it for electrical applications. I have checked panels with it, but don't feel comfortable reporting on what I'm seeing yet. About a month ago I saw an FPE where the whole interior of the panel was 115 degrees+. The ambient was only about 80.

It was in the shade in the relatively early morning. Even the cover was abnormally warm to the touch. I did report that one.

During the school in Florida there was an electrical contractor that said home inspectors in his area with infrared cameras were driving him crazy reporting over heated breakers in panels - he made the service calls and found nothing wrong. The interpretation of what you find is very important. Just because a breaker shows that it is hot doesn't mean that it is a problem. It may show hot relative to other ones because that circuit is being used.

Can you still miss things? Sure, but I think it cuts the odds of that down a ways and provides a more thorough inspection.

Can you make more money with it? Yes. I don't think as much as I hear some people saying, but, I'm down here in S. Texas - otherwise known as northern Mexico. I have not advertised the thermal use. I just started using it and inserting some images into reports. The word spread from there. I've had a few calls to just check some houses with the camera for leaks.

[Jim Katen]

Originally posted by Richard Stanley

. . . Just because a breaker shows that it is hot doesn't mean that it is a problem. It may show hot relative to other ones because that circuit is being used. . .

How hot? A fraction of a degree? A plain-Jane breaker should *not* heat up when it's in use.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[kurt]

Very interesting.

I've gone back & forth on the IR thing for a couple years. I've been w/ the Flir rep's, played w/the demo a couple times, and generally got totally fascinated w/the prospect, but couldn't reconcile the thermographer thing w/the realities of scheduling home inspections. I think it's an inevitability though; they're getting affordable.

I came within one button click on my computer of buying a B Cam when they were about $12,500, but chickened out @ the last second.

I'll echo Jim's question...

What doesn't it do that you'd like it to?

[hausdok]

Say,

This might be a chance to put the chat room to good use, if we could get a few of these guys who use IR systems on here at a predesignated time and date to answer everyone's questions in real time. What do you guys think about that idea?

OT - OF!!!

M.

[Richard Stanley]

I schedule inspections just like I always have. If I find an anomaly, fine. If not, fine. Now if I were doing roof scans or eifs scans, I would adjust times for those.

The camera cost $6,750. It does nearly the same as the more expensive models, but, the B2 or the B20 do give you a better image. Knowing what I know now and have experienced it, I would probably buy the B20. The last time I looked the B2 was 15K and the B20 was 25K. I still may do that, especially if I expand the service to more than home inspections. ??

The B-cam works fine, at least as far as I can tell. I'm still taking baby steps...

It has 3 image modes - color, greyscale, and iron. The color images are more dramatic to impress someone in a report, but, I prefer the greyscale. You just attach it to a usb port and download the jpeg images - very simple - just like from a digital.

There is some report software that comes with it - I've never needed to use it.

The breakers that show more heat are the 220's.

And its not that much - at least the ones I have scanned, but, If the camera has a narrow temp range, the image looks dramatic. That is what the guy was talking about in Orlando. Since you brought it up, Jim, What would be an excessive heat differential? I'm a long ways from an electrical guru - maybe you are.

Mike,

I don't know about the group Q & A thing. I would rather see a forum topic for it. It gets mentioned periodically on a couple of the other forums, but, not on a regular basis. There is a forum on the flir.com site and also one on the snellinginfrared.com site. There are a few HI's on those sometimes. They don't have heavy participation.

What does it not do that I want it to? Write reports?? I really do not know yet. I haven't come up with anything.

[kurt]

Originally posted by hausdok

Say,

This might be a chance to put the chat room to good use, if we could get a few of these guys who use IR systems on here at a predesignated time and date to answer everyone's questions in real time. What do you guys think about that idea?

OT - OF!!!

M.

I think it's unnecessary. The beauty of internet BB's is one can jump in and out of the dialog; I check in when I get writers cramp, not when I have an appt.

Richard's filling in a lot of good info for me right here & now.

Thanks Richard.

[randynavarro]

I'm always very interested in new technology that will improve the quality of a home inspection. Trouble is for me, its a cost-benefit analysis: I will spend multi-thousands of dollars doing this new IR thing correctly. How do I recoup the cost?

I need to be doing two inspections per day most days. If I add other services (IR, sewer scope, etc) this would take longer for each total inspection and wouldn't allow me get the 2nd inspection in. I wouldn't be able to charge enough to make up for the lost 2nd inspection.

Extra services like this seems like it would work well for the 1 inspection per day folks.

[Richard Stanley]

Cost of camaera, sales tax, school with related travel and expenses came to about 9K. I plan to get more school - another 2K+.

Time - you can scan a whole (average size) house interior - walls, ceilings, floors - in 5 - 10 minutes or less. Although I don't do that much yet, the exterior takes even less time. Of course, when you add electrical and mechanical things to it - like some of the things in Mikes original post on this thread, it could take a little longer.

Payback - Assume 200 inspections/yr - add $50 per inspection.

Thats 10K

Play with the numbers to fit your situation.

Some inspectors are offering it as a separate service option for a separate fee.

It can also be offered at an hourly fee. I quote 100 per hour w/ 1 hour min and no written report. If they want a written report - 2hr min.

I don't know if that is good or bad. I've only had 2 takers for that deal.

I am not a thermographer - just an HI that uses the camera. Maybe someday - maybe not.

I also use the camera in a very simple automatic mode. It can be used in manual mode and the emissivity, reflectivity, etc. can be adjusted for different surfaces and materials.

As I have or take the time, I'll work on that stuff. Probably more school first tho.

There is an intangible element involved in the investment return. More business from referrals because you use it. We all know that the low to mid price buyers are mostly interested in the price of inspection only. The upper end buyers generally want the best inspection and are not so concerned about the $.

Is it important to use? Probably not right now, but it is in use by some of us now, and probably more as time passes. Can you make a living without it? Certainly, and you will continue to do so. Over time you may lose a few jobs to someone that has it.

[kurt]

Good thoughts. Good arithmetic.

Absolutely correct on the "bottom feeders vs. upper bracket" customer analysis; the folks w/money don't care about another hundo if they think they're getting the best.

It's inevitable. This biz is only going to get more involved, not less. I'm gonna have to have one, because not owning one will put me back in the pack, which is not where the business is.

Richard, clear thoughts from (an apparently) clear head.

Thank you for info; it's what keeps me thinking.

[hausdok]

Hi All,

For those of you who are interested, I've managed to restore most of the photos that were in the original article and have posted them full-size. Just go back to the first post on the first page of this thread to see them.

I've down-sized them pixel-wise so they should load relatively quickly on dial-up, but I apologize if it doesn't display well on some monitors. I'm still not very good at all of this formatting.

OT - OF!!!

Mike

[Richard Stanley]

There is a thread in progress on the NACHO bb titled "Is FLIR infared imaging the future wave of Home Inspections?"

There is a guy from Skokie (is that Chicago area) that is using and promoting the camera.

[kurt]

Yes, Skokie is right next door; about 5 minutes from me. That's why I have to think about the camera. Actually, I'm not thinking; I'm procrasinating. I know what I have to do, & I don't want to spend money.

Like Jim said;

Dam, dam, dammit, or something like that......

[roadguy]

Greetings to all! I felt like I needed to say that because this is my first post and I have never liked buttin' in on a conversation without at least saying "Hi"![] By way of introduction, my name is James and I am currently the Quality Control Mgr. for a highway construction company, but am going to make the "leap of faith" in the near future to independent (as in Non-franchised) HI. I have been putting off doing so for some time because, quite frankly, the "profession" has not been well represented/looked upon with respect by the public in my area; there seems to be an abundance of flim-flam artists (hence the word profession in quotes). That negative connotation comes from my personal experience (on homes that I was purchasing and had "inspected") with the following: 1)An "inspector" who walked through the house observing/stating the obvious, that he punctuated with a preponderance of exclamation points, which he then delivered on yellow legal paper as the finished "report", and 2)an inspector who holds a PE certificatiion (I learned my lesson from the 1st experience[:-dunce]) who, while very thorough, felt it was necessary to use a lot of technical jargon (when much simpler descriptions would have sufficed) which, IMO was a thinly veiled attempt to impress his customers with an unnecessary level of grandiosity. When my wife questioned him regarding some of these items, the condescension in his tone was almost sickening. Neither of these situations gave me any sense of value for my money spent, nor in any way encouraged me to regard the industry as a profession[:-censore. That is, until I came across this forum and saw (thru discussions by Kurt, et al.) that there are indeed professionals in the field and a need for such in my corner of the world. It is my hope that I will succeed on both those accounts. And now, to the reason I am posting this here instead of a more general discussion topic:

The purpose of having a home/property inspection performed is to give the purchaser a statement of the current condition of the property (a "snap-shot", if you will) and to alert them to problems/potential problems relating to the structure. This requires that the home inspector be, first and foremost, an excellent communicator and, secondarily, technically astute/adept/equipped. It is these directives that a professional inspector will use to determine what information will appear on the report, the format used to convey that information, and the tools used to gather the information. Keeping in mind that we are becoming an increasingly visual/technically-oriented society, it becomes very apparent that the HI profession needs a tool that is graphical in nature and that adds some kind of technical validation to statements the inspector makes. One need only look at the success of TV shows such as CSI and the effect that it has had on juries to realize this. Will thermal imaging make every inspector competent? Absolutely not! Will it be an invaluable tool in the hands of a trained professional? Without a doubt.

The reason I am entering into this discussion at all is because I see a real opportunity for the professionals in this field to have some input to manufacturers that results in a tool that is produced specifically for this type of application rather than trying to adapt something for use later. The technology already exists to incorporate normal (visual spectrum) images with thermal imaging, either side by side or as visual image with thermal highlights. Voice annotation/graphical notations on the image (the proverbial "high-gloss photographs with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back explaining each one"-remember "Alice's Restaurant", anyone?), and all these things now available in a package that costs about $10,000- a complete inspection tool. I would like to refresh your memory regarding a discussion on this very board that took place over a year ago. It began with a new inspector's question regarding software choices (and is how I came across this forum in the first place, Google search for home inspection software for the Macintosh). The discussion progressed rapidly from that point to the inclusion of digital photos (whether such was necessary or not. Kurt, I believe you were more inclined to give a well-written description, the main objection being the time involved in incorporating these images into the report and the impact this had on the profitability of the home-inspection enterprise, a good point). It is interesting to note that, barely a year later, the discussion is now about incorporating thermal images/technology into the inspection (quite a leap, eh?). I refer to this previous discussion because I believe it illustrates very well the need for this profession, if it is indeed to remain a profession, to step up and make known its needs as an industry to those who would supply it. My thinking is this: If images, especially thermal images, are to become a necessity in the home inspection profession (as it appears that it will), why not have an imaging device that is used to build the report rather than have a device that simply produces images that then have to be transferred to report (with the same hassle associated with importing digital camera files into reporting software)? Now is the time to be getting with these manufacturers to have this be a reality.

Again, I do not think that this technology will solve all problems associated with this profession (even the best tools will not make a true craftsman out of an idiot), but I do believe that, as HAUSDOK stated in the opening post, it will "elevate the inspector...from simple technician to a true technology professional". And, for a different take on the cost of the equipment: That could be beneficial in the sense that it will create what economists call a "barrier to entry"; if it becomes pretty much an industry standard, such a cost could deter those who are not ready to take it seriously from entering the field.

Okay...so there's my shpeel..Feel free to flame at will. Be advised, though, that years of working out in the sun around very hot asphalt/crusty road const. workers has pretty much turned my skin to armor[:-slaphap

[Jim Katen]

Originally posted by roadguy

. . . Okay...so there's my shpeel..Feel free to flame at will. Be advised, though, that years of working out in the sun around very hot asphalt/crusty road const. workers has pretty much turned my skin to armor[:-slaphap

OK then. Learn to say more with fewer words. I realize that it takes more time to make your points succinctly, but it's a valuable exercise and your readers always appreciate it.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[hausdok]

I've tried. We all know that it's hopeless. []

However, re. James' post, more paragraphs would be nice.

Ya know what? Roadguy sounds like a reasonably bright fellow. Guess he must have kept his helmet on and the sun off his head all of those years.

Pretty good for a first post James. Welcome to the TIJ family.

OT - OF!!!

M.

[Jim Katen]

Originally posted by hausdok

I've tried. We all know that it's hopeless. []

Yes, James, whatever you do, don't use hausdok as an exemplar of brevity. He's beyond rehabilitation.

. . .Ya know what? Roadguy sounds like a reasonably bright fellow. Guess he must have kept his helmet on and the sun off his head all of those years. . .

And he has an excellent first name.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

[hausdok]

Sniff [:-paperba

OT - OF!!!

M.

[kurt]

I was going to make a smartass comment along the lines of "James is in competition w/Mr. O' for the Dr. Bronner's award", but got a little nervous; new guy and all that. He seems to have his head in the right place though, dont'cha think?

Back to the topic at hand....

B or B2? That is the question.......

OOH, $6 grandish w/50 pic capacity & reasonable resolution, OTOH, $10 grandish w/200 pic capacity and substantially improved resolution.

Hey Richard, care to weigh in again w/your thoughts on this conundrum? Now you've been using it for a while, maybe you've got some new thoughts?

[roadguy]

OK then. Learn to say more with fewer words

Why, whatever do you mean?[:-angel] You got the condensed version.[:-bigeyes

However, re. James' post, more paragraphs would be nice.

My apologies. I mistakenly assumed that this forum would be like most of the others I have checked out where all grammatical conventions (punctuation,spelling,etc.) are tossed out the window so that participation excitation is increased via the challenge of "deciphering the code".[:-party]

Roadguy sounds like a reasonably bright fellow. Guess he must have kept his helmet on and the sun off his head all of those years.

Actually, the opposite is true. I intentionally took my hat off so that all my half-baked ideas could cook a little longer.[:-crazy]

Appreciate the welcome, though, and look forward to what promises to be some interesting "discussion".