Sure Test and False Grounds!

[a46geo]

Sorry David,

This topic got a little boring so I ignored it.

I take the simple approach, I assume. Kitchen and bath should be 20 amp circuits and I see if they cut the mustard at 20 amps. The rest I test as 15 amp circuits and see how they do.

This is what you mean right?

I inspected a house a couple of years ago and every outlet that I tested had a very low (4% or less) voltage drop AT 20 AMPS. When I got to the panel, I found that the whole house had been wired with 12 ga wire. The general circuits however were indeed protected by 15 amp breakers.

George

[Rob Amaral]

I bought the Suretest because it does the GFCI trip factoring based on the 'actual voltage' at the house/receptacle.

Bummer is that the thing is kind of big. (Eagle Creek sacs at Eastern Mountain Sports....only way to go).

Only once did my Suretest discover a biggie...really low voltage on a brand new house a the end of a long street.

When I brought it up, the broker fessed up and said the 'utility is working on it'.

Very good tool for checking voltage drops on those props that are set way, way back from the trannie in the street.

I'd recommend one no question. It's the carrying that is the bummer...

[hausdok]

Hi,

I always do the panel before I do any outlet testing, so I get to check conductor sizes for the various parts of the home vs. what size breaker they are connected to vs. which circuit the panel says that they are.

From there, I never pull an outlet cover unless there is a high voltage drop reading or a false ground reading that can't be explained. Even then, I only pull the cover on the outlet with the FG or the cover from the outlet farthest from the panel - not all of them. I can't see going beyond that. If all of the GL circuits are 14ga in the panel, and the kitchen/appliance/bath are 12ga, I'm going to presume that's what is at each of the outlets.

There are some folks in the business who don't pull panel covers - either because they feel that doing so is doing an 'invasive' inspection, because they say it is 'unsafe' or because they say they aren't allowed to by their state's code. From my point of view, there's no point in these folks even purchasing a SureTest because, even though they know what the circuits 'should' be, there is no way to know what the circuitry probably is.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[Brian G]

Originally posted by hausdok

There are some folks in the business who don't pull panel covers - either because they feel that doing so is doing an 'invasive' inspection, because they say it is 'unsafe' or because they say they aren't allowed to by their state's code.

You're kidding, right?

Brian G.

I Hope You're Kidding

[hausdok]

No, I'm not. But I'll leave it at that. You can't make someone's business decisions for them.

OT - OF!!!

M.

[allspec33351]

He is not. Had Realtor today that ask why would I want to pull the cover, his inspectors don't. I said I'm not your inspector.

Captain

[Brian G]

Originally posted by hausdok

No, I'm not. But I'll leave it at that. You can't make someone's business decisions for them.

True. I'll leave it at that....Lordy.

Brian G.

[dlee]

Originally posted by a46geo

Sorry David,

This topic got a little boring so I ignored it.

I take the simple approach, I assume. Kitchen and bath should be 20 amp circuits and I see if they cut the mustard at 20 amps. The rest I test as 15 amp circuits and see how they do.

This is what you mean right?

I inspected a house a couple of years ago and every outlet that I tested had a very low (4% or less) voltage drop AT 20 AMPS. When I got to the panel, I found that the whole house had been wired with 12 ga wire. The general circuits however were indeed protected by 15 amp breakers.

George

Thanks, George.That's helpful. I used the SureTest on a couple of houses and decided there was a better way to make a living than worry about what AWG was indeed inside the wall. Ditto re Mike's practice of checking rec's furthest away from the panel. I may not in fact wind up ever calling a voltage drop. But in the meantime I need to build my own experience with this new toy.

Thanks to both -

-David Lee

[swarga]

1) I do look at the main panel first.

2) I use the Sure test ST-1D

I find voltage drop all the time but I try to be practical about it. If you have a 100 ft run of 14 gauge with four outlets on it you will have a voltage drop.

I only write it up if the drop is 5% or more between outlets, or over 10% on a circuit.

I don't pull outlet covers. Why should I? I am not going to repair it, I'm going to tell them to have a sparky fix it. I already spend to much time at a house without opening boxes or switches.

[lw3]

I believe the tester applies a voltage across the ground and the neutral then it measures the voltage drop. If test conducted within 15 to 20 feet of panel, result is bootleg . NEC code allows ground and neutral to be bonded only at the panel. That close to the panel the tester does not know it is so close to a legitamate bond.

[Scottpat]

This has to be the oldest resurrected post I have seen on this site!

[PAbernathy]

Scott......good information never DIES.....another good tip about a sure test is for the G-N test...if the G-N measurement is above 2 amps it tells you somewhere in the system the client has an issue of too much current traveling on the low imp. fault current path......and generally means a wiring issue.....if you are going to use a Suretest...get familiar guys with all the things it can tell you as there are many...

I wanted to do a class on it for an Association but was told it was way beyond the SOP.....I guess my point was to educate not speculate but regardless I nixed the class.

Ground-Neutral Voltage Measurement

There is only one test within the Ground-Neutral Voltage menu. In a singlephase

circuit, high ground-neutral voltage indicates excessive leakage between the neutral and ground conductors, excessive leakage onto the grounding conductor can create a shock hazard and improper function of the system at the device.....

I have attached the SureTest manual because you really need to look at the charts and learn EVERYTHING a suretest can tell you IF you are going to be using one...

Download Attachment: suretestmanual.pdf

85.49 KB

[StevenT]

I seem to recall from a number of sources that it is quite common to get false ground readings when testing near a main panel. As I live in NYC, which is pretty much a world of BX and EMT, false grounds are not a common problem. Although a loose bx connector, separated EMT or something improperly wired is possible (ungrounded). When I get that reading, I usually do a visual.

[PAbernathy]

Yeah the closer you are to the panel and the common connection between the Grounded and Grounding conductors throws off the suretest as explained in the manual. However, in regards to BX Cable.....it is a good tool to use because of the wide mis-use of BX as an EGC when it is not actually rated as such.....so also ( as you said ) give BX an extra look see.

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

I just purchased a dead Sure Test 61-165 with afci and ELL features for about $30 total with no cord or case. the only cord I had was a 6' 18 AWG cord and I didn't calculate the relative error of a 14 AWG 1 ft cord and a 6', 18 AWG cord. I'll bet the approximate cord resistance is not subtracted from the readings and ther is probably no reason to do so if it's 14 AWG and 1 foot long.

When turned on the display looked like static on a TV. I'm pleased that the accessory prices are reasonable. A one foot 14 AWG cord elsewhere would have to be had in packages of 4 without a significant difference in price. Repair costs are $150 flat fee by Ideal. Again, this seems resonable.

On inspection everything looked well done including the inside EXCEPT the ribbon cable interconnects to the display and keyboard.

there are at least three soldered in place automotive fuses in the unit labeled non-replaceable and they checked good.

My Spidy sense said that a grey colored interconnect might be a obstacle course for electrons. The display came back by reseating the display connectors, one is on the diaplay itself, but the keyboard did not.

It took some considerable scraping of the contacts to be able to see unoxidized metal on the keyboard ribbon cable.

I reassembled and added some special expensive contact enhancing solution and we'll see what happens in the long term. repair time was 15 minutes, tops.

The AFCI button has to be held down longer than the other's, but the reason for the unresponsiveness of the keys is explained in the manual.

Conclusion:

With a bad ground, some readings are nonsense.

Two prong outlet should be able to be tested with a 2 to 3 prong adapter correctly grounded.

I can see where the storage environment could contribute to reliability.

I can see where some of the test connectors would be useful. Schematics of what they do, would make the instructions easier to understand.

IMO, using nickel-gold plated sockets and selective nickel-gold on the interconnect cables would really be a plus for reliability. Not doing it contributes to Ideal's revenue stream.

I got no response from Ideal.