Mess o' ground wires

[AHI in AR]

It's rare that I take a panel cover off and just start laughing, but this did it for me. This 12 year old house was in a small town w/o any muni inspections.

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[kurt]

I don't seen any NMC in my 'hood.......are you allowed to bring it into the panel all bundled up like that?

[Jim Katen]

I don't seen any NMC in my 'hood.......are you allowed to bring it into the panel all bundled up like that?

Not in a flush-mount box like that.

[Bain]

I don't seen any NMC in my 'hood.......are you allowed to bring it into the panel all bundled up like that?

Not in a flush-mount box like that.

Was it ever allowed, Jim? I look at lots of houses that are 30-40 years old in which all the cables are stuffed through one large hub like that. I always tell my customer about it, but the electrician who comes behind invariably says it grandfathers in.

[Jim Katen]

I don't seen any NMC in my 'hood.......are you allowed to bring it into the panel all bundled up like that?

Not in a flush-mount box like that.

Was it ever allowed, Jim? I look at lots of houses that are 30-40 years old in which all the cables are stuffed through one large hub like that. I always tell my customer about it, but the electrician who comes behind invariably says it grandfathers in.

Well, first of all, remember that it *is* allowed at the top of a surface mount box if a bunch of conditions are met, including securing the cables before they enter the conduit, making sure the conduit is at least 18" long, and derating the cables as you would for any other bundle if the conduit is more than 24" long.

Aside from that, the electricians you've talked with might be right. The earliest reference I can find is from the 1975 NEC:

373.5© Where cable is used, each cable shall be secured to the cabinet or coutout box. (No exceptions are listed.)

Before '75, I can't find any prohibition against it, except for derating, of course.

I haven't spent much time on this one, but it seems that it was allowed before '75. From '75 till '99 it was flat-out prohibited. And from '99 to the present, the exception for surface-mounted boxes noted above, has been in effect.

If Douglas is following this, he might have more pertinent observations.

[Bain]

I don't seen any NMC in my 'hood.......are you allowed to bring it into the panel all bundled up like that?

Not in a flush-mount box like that.

Was it ever allowed, Jim? I look at lots of houses that are 30-40 years old in which all the cables are stuffed through one large hub like that. I always tell my customer about it, but the electrician who comes behind invariably says it grandfathers in.

Well, first of all, remember that it *is* allowed at the top of a surface mount box if a bunch of conditions are met, including securing the cables before they enter the conduit, making sure the conduit is at least 18" long, and derating the cables as you would for any other bundle if the conduit is more than 24" long.

Aside from that, the electricians you've talked with might be right. The earliest reference I can find is from the 1975 NEC:

373.5© Where cable is used, each cable shall be secured to the cabinet or coutout box. (No exceptions are listed.)

Before '75, I can't find any prohibition against it, except for derating, of course.

I haven't spent much time on this one, but it seems that it was allowed before '75. From '75 till '99 it was flat-out prohibited. And from '99 to the present, the exception for surface-mounted boxes noted above, has been in effect.

If Douglas is following this, he might have more pertinent observations.

As always, you rock.