I'm Going to End Up Going Postal

[hausdok]

Hi All,

Some interesting photos sent to me by Jim Simmons - user name Mr. Electric.

Jim wrote:

Home inspectors need to know the basic's of electrical safety. This panel is an example of why I think it is important for home inspectors to at least look inside the panel. In this case there are very obvious problems that he/she would have (should have) noticed. The main service wires are not in conduit! Very dangerous and illegal. Note the open knock-outs at the top and bottom of the panel where the conductors enter the panel; they are just shoved through the open hole!

Most of the time home inspectors are the ONLY people to see these homes. They need to know when it doesn't look right! They need to be trained on the the basics.

According to Jim, he was asked to look at the job by a contractor he occasionally works with. He was asked to look at the only two issues that the home inspector had noted - no flexible metallic conduit on the water cable conductors and no heater in one of the bedroom. He took it upon himself to at least look in the panel before adding a heater; that's when he found what you see in the photos below. Besides the electrical stuff, there isn't any discharge tube on the T & P valve and there isn't any seismic restraint on the tank. Don't know if the "inspector" noticed these issues or not.

When stuff like this, which a supposedly competent and licensed home inspector had already inspected, gets discovered by a real pro it's embarrassing as hell; and, as someone who's busted his tail for 15 years to try and raise the bar in this state, it's pretty discouraging. [:-banghea

I hope Jim can find out who this yahoo was, 'cuz if he does the inspector is going to get a call from Department of Licensing.

Grrrr, days that start like this make me crazy.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

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[Marc]

I hope Jim can find out who this yahoo was, 'cuz if he does the inspector is going to get a call from Department of Licensing.

Curious. What would they do?

I checked my own SOP - Louisiana's. Nothing in there to solidly hook that inspector on. It's just sheer incompetence.

Marc

[hausdok]

Under our state's laws, the Director, Department of Licensing has the power to discipline inspectors for failing to abide by the SOP.

The disciplinary authority has the power to:

(1) Adopt, amend, and rescind rules as necessary to carry out the purposes of this chapter, including, but not limited to, rules regarding standards of professional conduct and practice;

(2) Investigate complaints or reports of unprofessional conduct and hold hearings as provided in this chapter;

(3) Issue subpoenas and administer oaths in connection with any investigation, hearing, or proceeding held under this chapter;

(4) Take or cause depositions to be taken and use other discovery procedures as needed in an investigation, hearing, or proceeding held under this chapter;

(5) Compel attendance of witnesses at hearings;

(6) Conduct practice reviews in the course of investigating a complaint or report of unprofessional conduct, unless the disciplinary authority is authorized to audit or inspect applicants or licensees under the chapters specified in RCW 18.235.020;

(7) Take emergency action ordering summary suspension of a license, or restriction or limitation of the licensee's practice or business pending proceedings by the disciplinary authority;

( Appoint a presiding officer or authorize the office of administrative hearings, as provided in chapter 34.12 RCW, to conduct hearings. The disciplinary authority may make the final decision regarding disposition of the license unless the disciplinary authority elects to delegate, in writing, the final decision to the presiding officer;

(9) Use individual members of the boards and commissions to direct investigations. However, the member of the board or commission may not subsequently participate in the hearing of the case;

(10) Enter into contracts for professional services determined to be necessary for adequate enforcement of this chapter;

(11) Grant or deny license applications, secure the return of a license obtained through the mistake or inadvertence of the department or the disciplinary authority after providing the person so licensed with an opportunity for an adjudicative proceeding, and, in the event of a finding of unprofessional conduct by an applicant or license holder, impose any sanction against a license applicant or license holder provided by this chapter;

(12) Designate individuals authorized to sign subpoenas and statements of charges;

(13) Establish panels consisting of three or more members of the board or commission to perform any duty or authority within the board's or commission's jurisdiction under this chapter; and

(14) Contract with licensees, registrants, endorsement or permit holders, or any other persons or organizations to provide services necessary for the monitoring or supervision of licensees, registrants, or endorsement or permit holders who are placed on probation, whose professional or business activities are restricted, or who are for an authorized purpose subject to monitoring by the disciplinary authority. If the subject licensee, registrant, or endorsement or permit holders may only practice or operate a business under the supervision of another licensee, registrant, or endorsement or permit holder under the terms of the law regulating that occupation or business, the supervising licensee, registrant, or endorsement or permit holder must consent to the monitoring or supervision under this subsection, unless the supervising licensee, registrant, or endorsement or permit holder is, at the time, the subject of a disciplinary order.

[2002 c 86 § 104.].

The SOP requires that at a minimum the inspector remove the deadfront cover and look inside. I don't think he or she'd be able to convince anyone that the cover had been removed to inspect the interior.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[Jim Katen]

I hope Jim can find out who this yahoo was, 'cuz if he does the inspector is going to get a call from Department of Licensing.

Curious. What would they do?

I checked my own SOP - Louisiana's. Nothing in there to solidly hook that inspector on. It's just sheer incompetence.

Marc

From the WA standards:

The inspection of the electrical system includes the service drop through the main panel; subpanels including feeders; branch circuits, connected devices, and lighting fixtures. . . . The inspector will: . . . Describe any deficiencies of these systems or components.

That's a pretty big hook. I'd say you could hook me on that one on pretty much every inspection I've ever done.

[hausdok]

Hi Jim,

That's a good point, but nobody is interested in hooking anyone who is clearly making an honest effort to do a good job. Blatant disregard for the basics, when one has to prove that one at least knows the basics to be licensed here, is something that shouldn't be tolerated.

If this person holds a license, he or she would have needed to pass the NHIE and I think you'd be hard pressed to believe that person had at least opened this cover to take a peek inside as part of the inspection.

I've often said that the aim of licensing is to protect the consumer. It should be to ensure that those who say they can do a job, prove that they can do it competently, and then, if it becomes evident that someone isn't doing the job competently, to ensure that person either goes back and gets training to get up to speed on what's needed to the job competently or force that person out of the profession before someone gets hurt.

I think that's a fair expectation for us to have; since I know that consumers expect competency - not what this buyer obviously got.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

P.S.

I've been wondering all morning if this "inspector" is actually someone who is licensed or if this is one of the 40+ so-called "inspectors" that are certified to do HUD Section 8 inspections in the state who don't hold an inspector's license that Ms. Myers at DOL told me about yesterday.

[kurt]

How much is postage?

As far as the hook, I could get hooked on any job I do, depending on how deep someone wants to look.

[allseason]

Even if the deadfront was not removed the lack of strain relief on the cables is seen from the outside.

As far as recourse, in NJ you can file complaints with the Div. of Consumer Affairs, the Home Inspection Advisory Board.

Or you can litigate.

[fyrmnk]

WOW! Who doesn't open or inspect the main panel?

[Erby]

Did Jim mention the neutrals lugged with the grounds

Was there stuff in front of the panel that prevented the inspector from getting to the panel?

Don't kill him until you hear his story.

[fyrmnk]

Did Jim mention the neutrals lugged with the grounds

Was there stuff in front of the panel that prevented the inspector from getting to the panel?

Don't kill him until you hear his story.

That was my first thought, but Mike advised he only listed the couple of issues on the inspection. I sure would list an inaccessible panel as a problem.

Might be more to the story though just the same.

[allseason]

Now that I took a closer look at all the pics I realize the outer portion of the enclosure is not visible until the deadfront is removed. In NJ the SOP is to remove all accessible covers. If I can't access I report it and tell them to re-inspect or call electrician.

[Richard Saunders]

Hi All,

Some interesting photos sent to me by Jim Simmons - user name Mr. Electric.

Jim wrote:

Home inspectors need to know the basic's of electrical safety. This panel is an example of why I think it is important for home inspectors to at least look inside the panel. In this case there are very obvious problems that he/she would have (should have) noticed. The main service wires are not in conduit! Very dangerous and illegal. Note the open knock-outs at the top and bottom of the panel where the conductors enter the panel; they are just shoved through the open hole!

Most of the time home inspectors are the ONLY people to see these homes. They need to know when it doesn't look right! They need to be trained on the the basics.

According to Jim, he was asked to look at the job by a contractor he occasionally works with. He was asked to look at the only two issues that the home inspector had noted - no flexible metallic conduit on the water cable conductors and no heater in one of the bedroom. He took it upon himself to at least look in the panel before adding a heater; that's when he found what you see in the photos below. Besides the electrical stuff, there isn't any discharge tube on the T & P valve and there isn't any seismic restraint on the tank. Don't know if the "inspector" noticed these issues or not.

When stuff like this, which a supposedly competent and licensed home inspector had already inspected, gets discovered by a real pro it's embarrassing as hell; and, as someone who's busted his tail for 15 years to try and raise the bar in this state, it's pretty discouraging. [:-banghea

I hope Jim can find out who this yahoo was, 'cuz if he does the inspector is going to get a call from Department of Licensing.

Grrrr, days that start like this make me crazy.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

Click to Enlarge

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So, apparently you have read the inspection report and noted that these items are not on it. What did the inspector have to say?

[hausdok]

I see Mr. Saunders is displaying his usual reading comprehension problem again.

OT - OF!!!

M.

[hausdok]

Jim Simmons just sent me a response to some questions on the thread.

I had a request to point out the issues for a few people so I put together a word file that has the pictures and the issues pointed out. I know some of you understand and may not need the clarification (feel free to delete it), but for others it may be helpful.

By the way I also give any of you the right to forward it to someone that might be able to benefit from it, or to use it on web sites.

I left the pictures full size so you should be able to open them to get a closer look.

Jim P. Simmons

Mr. Electric

I've attached the document he sent me below.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

Download Attachment: MainPanel IssuesForJimSimmonsPost.doc

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[Erby]

It's nice that he'll share such detail with us.

[Jim Katen]

That's a nice picture essay on some of the defects in that installation.

But if this thread is about poor inspecting & reporting on the part of an inspector, I'd like to see the actual report before I start burning him in effigy.