no wrap under vinyl siding

[John Dirks Jr]

I inspected an end unit townhome that was built in 1994. I lifted the vinyl siding and could see plywood underneath. I checked various other locations and the same was revealed. No building wrap of any kind.

With OSB, I know this would be a serious problem. What about with plywood? Does the same hold true with exterior grade plywood? Should there be a wrap of sorts under this siding or is it ok since it is plywood and not OSB?

This is the first time I found exposed wood under vinyl siding.

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[John Dirks Jr]

I found my answer hosted at my own website. Page 2 of the following document talks about water resistive barriers and vinyl siding.

http://home.comcast.net/~marylandhomein ... nstall.pdf

I just wanted to make sure since its a big issue. I'm writing it up. I wonder if the whole community was built like this?

[kurt]

Probably. It's common.

[John Dirks Jr]

Probably. It's common.

Although common, not really a good thing, right?

[Bain]

It wasn't even required until a few years ago. We have a top-50 (nationally, in units sold) builder here that has thousands of houses sitting around with no WRB. I haven't heard any horror stories--yet--but not a good thing.

A problem you'll run into is that the WRB wasn't mandatory in '94. Unless you found some gunk someplace, selling it as a "big issue," is gonna be tough. I'm not disagreeing, mind you, but I've traveled that path, and others just like it, in the past.

[John Dirks Jr]

It wasn't even required until a few years ago. We have a top-50 (nationally, in units sold) builder here that has thousands of houses sitting around with no WRB. I haven't heard any horror stories--yet--but not a good thing.

A problem you'll run into is that the WRB wasn't mandatory in '94. Unless you found some gunk someplace, selling it as a "big issue," is gonna be tough. I'm not disagreeing, mind you, but I've traveled that path, and others just like it, in the past.

Thanks, I'll be careful how I word it. I certainly am not going to ignore it.

[kurt]

If I recall correctly, the "wasn't required" part isn't entirely correct. I think it was something where the plywood mfg. said you can't do it to their product; it wasn't the vinyl mfg. that prohibited the method.

[Bain]

If I recall correctly, the "wasn't required" part isn't entirely correct. I think it was something where the plywood mfg. said you can't do it to their product; it wasn't the vinyl mfg. that prohibited the method.

You're probably right, but I was talking about the IRC, which as Bill recently pointed out, didn't require anything behind vinyl till 2006.

[kurt]

Didn't the vinyl mfg's. require it? If they did, it's defacto code.

Mfg. spec trumps code, or lack of code. Mfg. spec is the code.

[Bain]

I dunno. What I DO know is that I squawked about it more than once several years ago and got overruled by my local AHJ every time.

Here, on older houses, one finds 30# felt beneath whatever the siding of choice may have been. It's something folks did just 'cause they knew it was wise. Now, someone who builds 500 houses a year has a kid with an accounting degree determine how much can be saved per unit by adhering only to the absolute minimum that's required by law.

[John Dirks Jr]

Here's what I said in the report. I know it's wordy as heck but the issue is not so cut and dried. I felt I needed to give extra info in this situation.

If you think there's anything seriously wrong with this comment, please speak out.

When this house was built, no building wrap was used under the vinyl siding. Current code requires that building wrap be used under vinyl siding. The reason is, vinyl siding is not intended to be waterproof. Building wraps under siding help shed water and prevent damage to the wood sheathing. Although this house may have been built compliant to code at the time, it does not mean that building materials are not, or could not, become damaged due to the lack of building wrap under the siding. Because of this, I recommend further investigation by a qualified contractor to determine if water damage exists. If water damage is discovered under the siding, the damaged materials should be replaced. I checked under the siding in three or four locations and saw no building wrap. The areas that I checked did not exhibit damaged materials underneath. However, I strongly recommend a thorough investigation, especially in the areas underneath windows and doors. Page 2 of the following document talks about water resistant barriers and their importance has components of vinyl siding systems. http://home.comcast.net/~marylandhomein ... nstall.pdf

[Tom Raymond]

John, the next time you peek under vinyl try pulling a piece right under a window. When you show your client the rotted sheething at the bottom corners they'll get the importance of a WRB.

[kurt]

John, the next time you peek under vinyl try pulling a piece right under a window. When you show your client the rotted sheething at the bottom corners they'll get the importance of a WRB.

I like that idea.

As far as the commentary, my only recommendation would be to be that expert you're recommending. It's not hard to zip some siding and take a look yourself.

If you find something, you're a hero. If not, you've done a heck of a good job, and you leave your customer with useful information instead of more work.

If you don't find anything, indicate that you looked, but there might be stuff you didn't find because you aren't going to strip the house.

Either way, tell folks what the deal is. You're going to figure out pretty quick (if you haven't already) that there are almost no "experts" to do any of the stuff we recommend. The experts are all the tradespeople that are going to sell your folks whatever it is they're selling.

[hausdok]

The experts are all the tradespeople that are going to sell your folks whatever it is they're selling.

By the way, I've got a whole drawer full of wolf tickets if anyone is looking to make an investment.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[Phillip]

John, the next time you peek under vinyl try pulling a piece right under a window. When you show your client the rotted sheething at the bottom corners they'll get the importance of a WRB.

Another good place to look for rotting sheeting is below areas where the roof to wall flashing ends

[John Dirks Jr]

For the future and just in case....

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[mark parlee]

WOW

Getting here late

I have one thirty unit complex that was built from 15.5 to 1.5 years ago. This was built under the 1982 UBC.

I can show where in fact protection to the sheathing is required. Then it was not called WRB rather paper or weather resistant sheathing. Plywood, OSB, fiber board, do not qualify.

This case is going to court for around 3/4 mil. against the original builder.

These points of moisture intrusion can take 10 to 12 years to show up to the inside.

I have another 100 plus unit complex with exterior gyp sheathing, Vinyl siding; no WRB protection of any sort; we will see about this one.

[

Download Attachment: 82 UBC sec 1707a .pdf

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[mark parlee]

not sure what is going wrong with my attachment.

Any help would be welcomed

[Jmayrand]

John,

I just purchased a home and am dealing with the same thing... OSB with no wrap and I did have indicators of windows leaking as well as insects coming through unfinished portions of the home. Is there any recourse a home owner can take on a purchased home. This house was built in 2001 and I was surprised to find as much as I did. Inner corners were not tapped properly so they are cracking (albeit I would expect some from settling...) But its just craftsmanship of today is so shoddy I don't think I would ever purchase a newer home again.

Jeff

[kurt]

Michigan has (or had) good laws allowing you to go after the builder, but it'd be a long haul.

After that, if you don't have WRB, you probably don't have flashing, pans, or anything that you need to keep water out.

[mark parlee]

Post 17 code info edited to correct upload

[kurt]

Thanks Mark.

I think builders were pointing to the weather resistance of OSB as the justification for calling it the moisture barrier. That was the case in a Nashville, TN, suit a few years ago.

[mark parlee]

Yes I think you are right.

I am still looking for any info that is from one of the manufacturers that states they rely on OSB being a weather restive sheathing.

I was recently had a case that covered a hundred townhomes built 14 to 15 years ago under the 91 UBC.

The sheathing was exterior gyp, siding was vinyl, no housewrap. The leaks were starting to show up. THe builder hired an engineering firm to counter my observations and report calling some of my conclusions "novel theory". My clients prevailed at a settlement the day before trial. It is pretty sad some of the things we are starting to se in homes that are not very old.

[kurt]

It is pretty sad some of the things we are starting to see in homes that are not very old.

I think you are right, and I think we are at the tip of the iceberg.

The building boom puked up a lot of garbage; it takes a few years for the problems to show up, but I'm seeing it more and more.

[mark parlee]

One of my favorite pictures

Nine years old

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