A bit of advice please

[Ben H]

The thought did cross my mind.

[mgbinspect]

The thought did cross my mind.

Not to mention, it will give us something to talk about on the lift.

[Ben H]

HA, Absolutely!

[gtblum]

If it is a legitimate mistake on their part I would pay. Golden rule, Karma and I need to like the person I see in the mirror every morning. I also like to think home inspectors have a well calibrated moral compass.

Exactly.

As this has played out, it sounds more like a legit mistake than anything else. It happens.

Car dealers tend to be under the microscope more so than any other business I can think of. Certainly more so than some of the folks we deal with, huh? Do they need one more headache? Why? They stand to make so much more than that stinking 2K from servicing that car, selling parts for it, warranty work, or body shop work. That's where the money is.

The sales department generates the most profit for the dealership. They also lose the most money. Every time a trade comes through the door, the fight starts. Everything that happens to the car to get it lot ready, is back charged to the sales department. Service, parts,and the body shop, all charge against what the car was taken in for. The dealership has four managers trying to make a profit and a bonus for their department. The dealer dosen't care.

New cars. 2011s should be there by now. 10s need to go NOW. Factory incentives beyond rebates come into the game. If that car had an invoice date of more than three months ago, it's costing them money. Interest is charged against that car after a three month grace period.

That's how it works.

They don't want the car back. If it's been registered and titled, it is now a used car. Make no mistake about it. New cars are new until the tail lights cross the curb. After that, it's just another hunk of used metal and plastic.

They don't want a problem. They don't make up phony invoices. They don't need the bullshit. They don't need to start a war over a car that's been delivered. Take it for what it's worth.

Two last bits of advice from someone who actually knows the busness. If you're the type who likes to trade every two or four years. Buy a one or two year old car, or lease what you drive. Stop throwing thousands out the window for the sake of owning a new car for five minutes.

Don't threaten to drive the car through the showroom window. They've heard it before and they think it's funny.

[Richard Moore]

...

Now when I was working the deal, I had two dealers bidding between each other. The dealer who we bought the car from was matching a price from the other. I did not say one way or another if the 23k was just the car, or out-the-door price. They took it upon themselves to write the deal up as out-the-door, not me.

I'm just playing Devil's advocate here Ben, but what I get from reading between the lines of that paragraph is that the other dealer's price was just the car. Presumably, you knew you weren't just getting a matching price and you didn't inform them. When you left did you feel you had almost stolen the difference?

Put the shoe on the other foot for a moment. Someone calls for a quote on a house and misrepresents the size by 1,000 sf one way or another, deliberately or by mistake. Or you have a brain fart on the phone and misquote. There's a bunch of possible scenarios there but, hopefully, you would think that the best outcome in all would be for you to get paid your normal amount.

If it is a legitimate mistake on their part I would pay. Golden rule, Karma and I need to like the person I see in the mirror every morning.

On the other hand...

Unless this was the world's smallest Honda dealer, I doubt that this was the first 2010 Accord with those specs that they have sold. I find it hard to believe that someone at the dealer didn't immediately have a "Holy Cow" moment with the total price. Add that to the lack of a signature and I'm finding it a little suspicious. Do you know if they have submitted the licensing papers to the state? If so, my suspicion of foul play diminishes somewhat.

It also doesn't sound like the phone call went very well, but I don't know who initially turned up the heat on that.

I can't advise you on what to do now. I think I would have to experience the whole thing from start to finish, basically be you, to know what was right. The only thing that comes to mind is for everyone to admit some fault, if that is the case, and split the difference.

[Steven Hockstein]

If it is a great deal and actually a math error I would pay the money in exchange for negotiating a deal in the service department. Something like the next three years of regularly scheduled maintenance for free plus a credit for a brake job. That can easily worth a grand or more. They don't take such a bad hit and you get something in return.

[Terence McCann]

To err is human to forgive divine.

I don't understand folks that get a good feeling knowing that they have just managed jip the McDonalds kid that gave them the wrong change back. You're not a shrewed businessman by taking advantage of the situation.

I'm not saying to cave when a business is trying a "bait and switch" tatic but to do the right thing when you know something is wrong. It could be your son, daughter, wife or husband that made the mistake when someone is ready to pounce on it.

Gee, you're pretty slick, clever you.

[hausdok]

I think he's dealing with a situation where the salesman sold the car too cheap, the sales manager didn't catch it or didn't realize it was happening and now they're trying to make up ground.

A deal is a deal. They made it, now they have to live with it. They'll make it up on another customer - don't ever imagine that they'll lose a dime because they won't. I worked as a mechanic in new car dealerships for more than five years between 1969 and 1975 - believe me, there is no way they aren't going to figure out a way to make it back.

I'm a lousy negotiator but my wife Yung is formidable. When I go into the Subaru place over in Kirkland and the salesman who sold us our first Baja sees me but doesn't see Yung, he invariably looks quickly around the showroom to see if she's there and then greets me with, "Hi Mike, good to see you today; uh, your wife isn't with you, is she?" When I answer no he's always relieved, loosens up and want to talk.

One day in 2003 I finally decided between purchasing a Baja and a PT Cruiser and Yung and I walked into their showroom. The salesman tried to deal with me, I told him that I don't handle the money or negotiations in my company, he'd have to deal with Yung. Late that evening, more than 45 minutes after their regular closing time, we finally drove out of there in a Baja purchased at the price that Yung thought was reasonable and at the payment she wanted. A couple of months later when I rolled in for the first free service for the life of the car, was the first time he blanched, looked around and timidly asked if she was with me and was relieved when she wasn't. I laughed and asked him what was wrong; he answered that the sales manager had gone up one side of him and down the other over the price he'd sold us the Baja for. I expressed regret over that but said, "Like I said, I don't handle the money or do the negotiating for my company. I know better."

Just under two years later, I went in for a service and brought her with me. He saw her, ducked into a cubical and wouldn't come out. I walked out in the showroom, saw the Baja Turbo, fell in love with it, and cannily pointed out to the Korean Konnection that it had more power, was an auto, not a stick like the 2003 model, and wouldn't bog down in low gear on hills as the 165hp model did. She got interested, walked out to the showroom and went looking for the salesman. I got a chuckle seeing him hiding in a cubicle, peeking around the partition. He looked at me imploringly, put his finger to his lips as if to say, "Please, please don't tell her I'm here." So I just kept mum.

The sales manager had never seen Yung in person, only heard about her; and, two years later, had forgotten her name - so he assigned a different sales guy to deal with her. That began a terrific battle of wills between the Sales Manager and Yung. It lasted all afternoon until deep into the evening with the sales guy caught in the middle. Finally, after at least a dozen attempts to get me engaged in the negotiating and her bypassing him and marching out into the showroom to the sales manager's deck at least a half a dozen time, they caved and she got what she wanted.

I know they didn't really lose any money but I don't think they made any profit on the car and with the lifetime of free services I guess they end up losing money. The next time I saw that manager, he asked me not to bring her in the next time I was buying. His tone was as if I didn't have any balls of my own for letting her negotiate. I didn't care; she's like a well-cleaned Weberly - a piece of negotiating art and a pretty good weapon.

My belabored point again is, don't beat yourself up over this; they aren't making what they wanted but it's not your fault - you negotiated in good faith and got what you wanted and now they have to live with the deal that they empowered that salesperson to make with you.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[Terence McCann]

I think he's dealing with a situation where the salesman sold the car too cheap, the sales manager didn't catch it or didn't realize it was happening and now they're trying to make up ground.

A deal is a deal.

That's the perfect example Mike. Someone made a mistake and I'm going to pounce on it for financial gain. Screw you a-hole - ha ha. You're going to catch hell and I have just made off like a thief in the night. Sucks to be you.

Actually Mike I am suprised at your statement. I always thought you took the high road.

[hausdok]

I think he's dealing with a situation where the salesman sold the car too cheap, the sales manager didn't catch it or didn't realize it was happening and now they're trying to make up ground.

A deal is a deal.

That's the perfect example Mike. Someone made a mistake and I'm going to pounce on it for financial gain. Screw you a-hole - ha ha. You're going to catch hell and I have just made off in the night like a bandit. Sucks to be you.

Nah, I'll take the high road. I have to be able to sleep.

LOL,

You do know that you're dealing with a car dealer, right?

I've never known a now or used car salesman that doesn't sleep like a baby.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[Terence McCann]

I am truly surprised Mike. For one of the few times in my life I'm at a loss for words.

[mgbinspect]

I think he's dealing with a situation where the salesman sold the car too cheap, the sales manager didn't catch it or didn't realize it was happening and now they're trying to make up ground.

A deal is a deal.

That's the perfect example Mike. Someone made a mistake and I'm going to pounce on it for financial gain. Screw you a-hole - ha ha. You're going to catch hell and I have just made off like a thief in the night. Sucks to be you.

Actually Mike I am surprised at your statement. I always thought you took the high road.

I too have a conscience that will relentlessly dog me. That's why, I would find out first from the attorney - can they do this? and then if they can and I'm not happy with it, just take the car back and see if they're happy with that. If they really want to make a sale, they'll come up with a reasonable solution. If they truly can't sell it that cheap, I'm willing to bet that within a couple of hours you can find someone who can. I know I could. If you got the time, there's always someone out there hungry and willing to make the deal.

It always seems that when something bad happens, it's the threshold to something better. You just have to be able to see that.

[Bill Kibbel]

Don't threaten to drive the car through the showroom window. They've heard it before and they think it's funny.

I don't threaten anything. I'm known for reacting to situations brashly without any consideration for the consequences of my actions. My wife has said on numerous occasions "Hon, calm the @#&$ down. You're gonna end up on the local news again".

I've pointed out undercharges to huge corporations. I've driven back to stores to return the overpayment of change. I've returned checks that have been made out for a higher amount than necessary. I've never kept anything of any value that I've found. My reaction is to how they initially handled it - by blaming the purchaser for their mistake.

[gtblum]

I think he's dealing with a situation where the salesman sold the car too cheap, the sales manager didn't catch it or didn't realize it was happening and now they're trying to make up ground.

Not likely. For about the last twenty years sales people have been resigned to being not much more than order takers. That was one of the reasons I got out. There isn't a move made during the negotiation that a manager doesn't have complete control over. That includes finalizing the numbers, approving the deal and signing the buyer's order. Then and only then, do you get escorted to the finance manager. Now, he get's to do his little dog and pony show. Extended warranties, environmental protection packages, (AKA rust proofing) and all of the other aftermarket crap everybody pays sticker for.

You know what's funny? People will fight tooth and nail for a discount of what a car manufacturer feels is a fair price for their product, but never think to do the same anywhere else.

Then there's the after sale story. They either stole the car, or got screwed. It just depends on who folks are talking to.

There's an old saying in the car biz. Buyers are Liars. There's a whole lot of truth to that. Not much a dealer can lie about. It's all out there for anyone to see.

Why is it, other manufactures invoice prices aren't published?

[gtblum]

Don't threaten to drive the car through the showroom window. They've heard it before and they think it's funny.

I don't threaten anything. I'm known for reacting to situations brashly without any consideration for the consequences of my actions. My wife has said on numerous occasions "Hon, calm the @#&$ down. You're gonna end up on the local news again".

I've pointed out undercharges to huge corporations. I've driven back to stores to return the overpayment of change. I've returned checks that have been made out for a higher amount than necessary. I've never kept anything of any value that I've found. My reaction is to how they initially handled it - by blaming the purchaser for their mistake.

That wasn't meant to be personal or directed at you, Bill.

[mgbinspect]

Originally posted by Bill Kibbel

I'm known for reacting to situations brashly without any consideration for the consequences of my actions. My wife has said on numerous occasions "Hon, calm the @#&$ down. You're gonna end up on the local news again".

Whew! Thanks for that heads up, Bill. Note to self: Don't make any comments about the way Bill is dressed at the Tri-ASHI Seminar... [:-fight]

[:-propell

[Terence McCann]

I'm known for reacting to situations brashly without any consideration for the consequences of my actions.

If I may ask, why?? I always thought you had a pretty even keel.

[hausdok]

I am truly surprised Mike. For one of the few times in my life I'm at a loss for words.

OK,

So, you're doing the inspection for the client and the buyer walks in and says to the client, I just found out that the price my realtor allowed me to sell this house for was about $15,000 lower than what it appraised for and I've got a guy on the phone who is willing to top your offer by $17,000. If I'd known that I was selling it too cheap, I never would have sold it to you for that price. I want to cancel our contract. I'm willing to give you first shot at buying it again, but only if you can meet the other guy's offer. Please come inside so we can talk abou it," and he turns and walks away, leaving your astonished client standing there with his mouth open.

The client turns to you and asks for advice. Do you tell him that if you were him you'd agree to the higher price because of karma or do you tell him, "You know what, he knew very well how much he was selling the house for when he put it on the market and he didn't have to accept your offer but he did. There's no way you should allow him off the hook."?

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[Richard Moore]

The trouble Mike, is that we really don't know if this was a genuine mistake or not. If it was a sales ploy the dealer pulled on customers on a regular basis, you would think there would be a history of complaints. I don't know that there isn't but, even for a shady dealer (OK...shadier than normal), it seems like a surefire way to quickly get yourself a shitty reputation and maybe lose your brand franchise to boot.

Car dealerships are certainly capable of some tricks, but they're not stupid. The more I think about this, the less sense it makes that they would use this particular method as a deliberate and regular sales technique. Besides the bad publicity I would think that they would get a lot of cars returned (some through windows) and I'm sure they don't want that.

As I alluded to before, I think only Ben has a good feel for what really happened here and can decide what to do.

[Ben H]

Guys, please, I NEVER meant this to turn into a morality debate. I know personal feeling about certain things in life can get into the way. Such as how you feel about a car dealer, lawyers, etc...

But, the story gets better...

I received a call yesterday from the GM (general manger) of the place. He was simple trying to put out this fire they created. Nice guy on the phone, but thats what he is good at. He is the guy who signed off on the deal. He says he rushed through it, and if only he had spent another 10 seconds, this would not have happened.

I was told the a-hole who jumped down my throat on the phone is no longer allowed to speak to new car customers about any problems....yeah, the sky is also green.

He more or less was begging for something. Just trying to salvage what he could. Now, they say that splitting the almost 2k at $980.00 is a fair deal. I also found out, that have been holding on to the bank contract to see if they could get us to agree to more $$$ so they can re-write it. My temp tags are up 9-17-10...tick-tock.

He said "The ball is in your court". I'm simply hoping you'll reason with us. The fact is, the car is ONLY in my wifes name. Only her SSN is on the note, etc... She had the final call on what we do.

The thing is, I've had to deal with one of the biggest a-holes I have ever had the pleasure of speaking to. I get different answers when I ask the same questions to different folks there. Questions about the actual price of the car, how much money they lost, etc... Now, I am not dumb, they will never release the true cost of a vehicle. Hell, I doubt the GM even knows. But when lies pour from the lips of the people who are asking me to fix their error, and do the right thing, I can't help but be hesitant. And when they start this crap about, we were loosing 1,200.00 on the deal before we screwed the pooch on the contract, I just have to laugh... Do people really buy that #$%*????

[hausdok]

Do people really buy that #$%*????

Not me.

One of the very first jobs I was given after signing on as a fresh-out-of-trade school mechanic at a new car dealership in 1970 was to disassemble the dashboards of a dozen less-than-a-year old Plymouth Fury's that had been rentals, which the dealer had bought at auction, remove the speedometers, remove the mileage tumblers, adjust them down to where they had less than a thousand miles a month accumulated on the dial, and then reassemble them.

Once or twice a month, the dealer would take a bunch of friends and a few of the mechanics with him to an evening car auction someplace in New Jersey. They'd pile into a few rental cars, drive down there, drop off the rental cars and have dinner on the boss at a local restaurant. After dinner, they'd go to the auction and wait for the boss to make his purchases and then drive back upstate with their prizes - Hertz or Avis cars that were nearly new. Then it fell to the lowest man on the totem pole in the shop - the kid - to 'tickle' the dials back.

When I balked, the service manager said, "Kid, you wanna job or you wanna stand in the unemployment line? It's up to you." I'd just married my high school sweetheart, didn't have a cent in the bank and had a raft of bills to pay. I swallowed hard and did the job. Afterward, I felt like someone had stood over me laughing while they'd pissed on me.

Not long after that, I left that dealer and went to work for another - a condition I insisted on when I took the job was that I was never to be asked or ordered to 'tickle' speedometers or do anything else that was "questionable" on used cars. I never was.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

[gtblum]

Actual costs are invoice = Net. Dealer holdback (factory $$$ paid to the dealer after the delivery) = Net Net. That never leaves the cookie jar. Then in October,(15 years ago in GM stores. I don't know what Honda does.) the factory gives another 5% (invoice)to help roll the old metal off of the lot.

Try not to finance through the dealer if you have a bank or CU you do business with. The dealer gets special rates from the banks. They always whack customers for a point or two over retention. They get the money. Shop the rate.

[MMustola]

I say, a deal is a deal. They should live with. Now if I had agreed to a price and they made a mathematical mistake on the contract than I would agree that I owed them the money.

If they screwed up and quoted me too low of a price than I would not feel bad. They had plenty of time to correct their error.

I bought a new truck a few months ago and there were three people who reviewed the paper work, the salesman, his manager, the the finance guy.

[Tim Maxwell]

For me and my wife, the deal would have to stand as is or I would call the whole deal off and find another car at another dealership.

[Rocon]

As far as I see it you have an offer that they drew up. Your signing it made it a contract end of story.

Hypothetically, if they would have written the contract for 2K too much and it got past your attention and you signed the contract would they return the 2K?