Jim Katen

I don't know. Pull off a plank or two and look at what's going on behind them.

In my area, or country if you will, there can not be branch wiring in the same conduit as the service entry conductors.

I think it may be allowed for AC in the USA. ?

Looks like a feeder, not an SEC.

I know this post is pretty old but I have some questions about the Hardie Plank on my house the last 2 years I have been noticing some sort of brown dripping from under my siding. I live in Washington and this is on the south side of my house that gets most of the weather. Can you guys tell me what is going on here?

Thanks

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Is there a bathroom on the other side of that wall?

Jim/Marc:

You are making my head hurt........

LP is 1.99 a gallon right now.

I just want hot air coming out of the registers.....

Electricity cost?

BTW, if you're really interested in comfort, have you considered radiant heat?

Bruce,

Your landlord obviously doesn't care about your welfare or the welfare of his building. In general, this is a personality trait that doesn't change. Media stories might make you feel better but they won't change his attitude.

My best advice is to focus your energy on finding another place to live. You can still fight the good fight from new digs - and you can do so more effectively if you're not sick and if you don't have to worry about falling through the floor into that swamp in the crawlspace.

Tim, you have natural gas in the mountains? Or are we talking propane?

they have Natural Gas in "town", but up here it's LP. Right now the only thing on my buried tank is a set of gas logs and the Weber BBQ grill.

Then to make an intelligent decision, you'll need to know your price per gallon for propane and your cost per kwh for electricity.

BTW, you can get much cheaper propane if you own your own tank rather than rent it.

Just cut out that section of the garage door track. It'll be fine.

Tim, you have natural gas in the mountains? Or are we talking propane?

Tim, personally, I'd fix the existing system and let it run till it croaked. You might have a bad heat strip or a bad sequencer, either of which is simplicity itself to replace. There's no economic reason to ditch a repairable system.

On the other hand, you might just find that you're one of those people who don't like heat pumps. When a heat pump is running properly, it's blowing 95 - 105 degree air out of the registers. Air that's that temperature feels cool on your skin. In general - and don't take this the wrong way - old geezers hate heat pumps because they "blow cold air." (The heat pumps, not the geezers - they blow hot air.)

The answer to your question will depend on what your expectation is. Are you more interested in comfort or economy?

Hi,

I interpret it to mean that there must be a hard pipe through the wall of the cabinet of the appliance. The example of a wrought iron pipe from the valve through the side wall is fine but there is nothing wrong with having that flex inside the cabinet as long as what passes through the wall of the appliance is hard pipe or protected.

That's what I've always believed, but that's not what it says.

Is it OK for the EG feeder to be split up on the ground bar at the main panel?

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It's one of those things that's absolutely incorrect and will absolutely be fine.

Jim, I have never seen that configuration. Different practices for different areas for sure.

Yes. That's why I was kind of hoping for west coast opinions. I already know what the rest of the country thinks of flex connectors.

They do serve a useful purpose out here. When an earthquake hits, that furnace could be jumping around like it's on the back of a pickup truck driving over a washboard road. The flex provides a pretty good cushion against that movement.

Jim,

Your views always help me keep the sensationalism to a minimum. It's very appreciated.

Ah, but in this case the paragraph could use a bit more sensationalism. Older aluminum wiring certainly has problems that are distinct from those with copper wiring, but your paragraph doesn't convey that. For me, it's just too vague.

Is that an earthquake thing?

A nipple and a union would be easier to install than that mess.

I'm not sure. As far as I know, there's no requirement for the flex connector at all, but it's present on almost every installation.

"Connectors shall not be concealed within, or extended through, walls, floors, partitions, ceilings, or appliance housings."

Seems to prohibit the practice for flexible connectors.

While I have not taken the time to re-read the entire chapter, this one passage taken at face value seems plain enough for me to call it out. I could let it slide if I found the connector totally contained within a furnace and it fit with no abrasion or interference but again this is a situation I rarely if ever see. I can see the confusion written into the code enough to see your take though.

I just think that the word "concealed" doesn't apply here.

Here's what I see on almost every gas furnace here.

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That's an interesting observation. I did the substitution and yep, it's the same.

Thread drift.....

Am I the only person that can't fathom the organization and style of Inspectipedia? It's like a Dr. Bronners bottle, only with inspecting stuff.

You're not alone.

Here is the boiler I wrote for branch circuit aluminum wiring.

Aluminum branch circuit wiring was identified at ***. Aluminum branch circuit wiring has a history of causing fires when improperly installed. It can be safe if installed correctly with all connections being updated and proper. It is beyond the scope of this inspection to verify the correct installation of any branch circuit aluminum wiring in this house. Have the aluminum wiring in this house further investigated by a qualified electrician to determine if any corrections need to be made. Have them repair all issues that may exist. More information at the following site. >>> http://inspectapedia.com/aluminum/aluminum.htm

You know, you could substitute the word "copper" for the word "aluminum" in that paragraph and it would be just as true.

Do you have a close-up pic? Preferably some in your hand?

In my area, old UFFI is pure white and it's never perfectly flat like that. It looks like meringue. As Kurt said, it breaks into a very fine powder - almost like flour - when you rub it.

The stuff in your picture looks like blown-in white fiberglass.

I'm having a hard time visualizing an insulation that's anything like peanut butter.

No idea about the class action, but I've gotta say that Viega PEX sounds like something that would be advertised on late-night TV.

Is this piping unusually stiff?

. . . When they say connectors shall not be concealed within appliance housings, it seems pretty clear the flexible connectors should not be within or pass thru the furnace cabinet. Obviously the label posted takes this view.

In any case, the furnaces I see don't have room to conceal the connector totally within the cabinet and it obviously is prohibited from passing through the cabinet wall, the only feasible option left is to use iron pipe to go through the cabinet wall.

Chapter 24 includes a very clear definition of "concealed location" and it specifically excludes the inside of furnace cabinets.

CONCEALED LOCATION. A location that cannot be

accessed without damaging permanent parts of the building structure

or finish surface. Spaces above, below or behind readily

removable panels or doors shall not be considered as concealed.

It also says:

Semirigid tubing and listed connectors shall be

permitted to extend through an opening in an

appliance housing, cabinet or casing where the

tubing or connector is protected against damage.

Why have this provision if the connectors aren't allowed inside the cabinet?

I see gas connectors passing through furnace cabinets about once a year - it's very rare. The installers around here seem to understand that this is a no-no. I see flexible gas connectors installed inside furnace cabinets on roughly 99% of gas furnaces in my area. They fit in there just fine, with room to spare. The iron pipe comes through from the outside and transitions to a short connector inside the cabinet. Never seen or heard of a problem associated with this practice.

I don't see much here in the way of a requirement from the IRC. It's clearly not prohibiting the practice.

The manufacturer's instruction however, is very clear. I'm just wondering if this instruction extends beyond Lennox/Ducane. Is it a widespread requirement? A recent requirement?

I only ask because I've seen many thousands of installations done this way and, before I begin citing it in my reports I'd like to have some notion of how defensible it's going to be.

If, per Brandon, my local gas company isn't citing this, I'm probably not going to start unless there's a really good reason to.

As noted by Katen, IRC Chapter 24, G2422.1.2.3 Prohibited locations and penetrations. Connectors shall not be concealed within, or extended through, walls, floors, partitions, ceilings, or appliance housings. (exceptions follow)

I have seen bunches of the flex connectors that have leaks from vibration on the wall of the furnace. That knock out has sharp edges that will slice through appliance connectors after years of vibration.

I suppose the code writers wanted to err on the side of caution in prohibiting them within the cabinet due to the numerous components and potential sharp edges if a connector is wound around inside a furnace cabinet.

So it's your interpretation that a flex connector inside the cabinet of a furnace is "concealed" within the appliance housing?

If so, I disagree. It seems to me that this section is talking about areas that are not readily accessible, like the space behind a pre-fab fireplace.

If they're prohibited from being in a furnace cabinet, why have the exception that allows them to pass through the cabinet when protected?

I was always under the impression that flexible connectors had to be protected by a bushing if they passed through a cabinet wall. The directions for the last boiler I installed provided a part number for the bushing.

I have always had the same impression, it's mentioned in chapter 24 of the IRC as well. However, the printed instruction seems fairly clear that the connector shouldn't be used inside the cabinet at all - at least not in Lennox and Ducane furnaces.

Not a new thing for me, I've called it out for at least the last 10 years.

Is it a uniform requirement among all manufacturers or is it limited to one or a few?

Is this a new thing, or have I been sleeping?

This seems to say that gas flex connectors shouldn't be used within the furnace cabinet at all.

Other west coast inspectors have thoughts about this?

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If it matters, the NEC doesn't allow green insulation on ungrounded (hot) conductors at 120- or 240-volt wiring. Re-identification with tape is not an NEC-compliant option.