electures

110.2 Approval. The conductors and equipment required or permitted by this Code shall be acceptable only if approved. 100 Approved. Acceptable to the authority having jurisdiction. 110.3 Examination, Identification, Installation, and Use of Equipment. (A) Examination. In judging equipment, considerations such as the following shall be evaluated: (1) Suitability for installation and use in conformity with the provisions of this Code FPN: Suitability of equipment use may be identified by a description marked on or provided with a product to identify the suitability of the product for a specific purpose, environment, or application. Suitability of equipment may be evidenced by listing or labeling. So using that there is no compliant method to attach a ground to a metallic box except a listed ground clip. You would not be able to use a ground screw since none are listed. 250.148© reads; © Metal Boxes. A connection shall be made between the one or more equipment grounding conductors and a metal box by means of a grounding screw that shall be used for no other purpose, equipment listed for grounding, or a listed grounding device. Any machine screw is acceptable (they do not have to be green). It just can't be used for any other purpose. The UL White Book reads; Ground Clips — Ground clips are intended to be pressed on the flat surface of a square, rectangular, or octagonal box to hold a grounding conductor against the side wall of the box. Ground clips are typically used for connecting the grounding conductor of various wiring methods to outlet boxes or for connecting the bonding jumper from a receptacle or switch to an outlet box.

110.2 Approval. The conductors and equipment required or permitted by this Code shall be acceptable only if approved. 100 Approved. Acceptable to the authority having jurisdiction. 110.3 Examination, Identification, Installation, and Use of Equipment. (A) Examination. In judging equipment, considerations such as the following shall be evaluated: (1) Suitability for installation and use in conformity with the provisions of this Code FPN: Suitability of equipment use may be identified by a description marked on or provided with a product to identify the suitability of the product for a specific purpose, environment, or application. Suitability of equipment may be evidenced by listing or labeling.

Yes, thank you for seeing that. The cable has to be spliced in the interior of the dwelling unit to a wiring method permitted in a wet location, then ran outside. Once the wiring method enters a wet location (at the siding) it has to be rated for a wet location. I do not write the NEC, but that is what is written.

680.21(A)(4) is clear, but it doesn't say what you want it to say. It simply saying that, in the interior of a dwelling, X is permitted. It doesn't say what's not permitted and it doesn't say what is or isn't permitted outside a dwelling. This section does not support your argument. Enough said. Because it doesn't contain any prohibition. - Jim Katen, Oregon Um "Dude", Let me get this right. You are stating that since the NEC doesn't read that "NM cable is prohibited" it is acceptable to install NM cable outside the dwelling unit to the disconnect. However, the NEC clearly reads that NM cable is permissible "in the interior of dwelling units". Your argument is absurd. What code book are you looking at?

Yes Erik with a K, NOT LESS THAN therefore it needs to be 5' or MORE away from the hot tub. The link you posted above does not apply because this is a SFR and the answer in the link does not qualify SFR. Most of these jobs are with PVC and THWN pulled inside. I just did a job for my aunt like this 2 weeks ago. I pulled NM inside the house and from the exterior disco to the hot tub I pulled THWN, 6/3NM inside the house and #8 THWN outside the house and was able to maintain the 50A required rating.. NEC 110.14©(1)(a)(1) states; (a) Termination provisions of equipment for circuits rated 100 amperes or less, or marked for 14 AWG through 1 AWG conductors, shall be used only for one of the following: (1) Conductors rated 60°C (140°F). #8 is rated 40A @ 60C You left out this part: (3) Conductors with higher temperature ratings if the equipment is listed and identified for use with such conductors. (4) For motors marked with design letters B, C, or D, conductors having an insulation rating of 75°C (167°F) or higher shall be permitted to be used, provided the ampacity of such conductors does not exceed the 75°C (167°F) ampacity. 110.3(B) reads; (B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling. The UL White Book reads; NONMETALLIC-SHEATHED CABLE (PWVX) USE This category covers Types NM-B and NMC-B nonmetallic-sheathed cable, rated 600 V, intended for use in accordance with Article 334 of ANSI/NFPA 70, ‘‘National Electrical Code’’ (NEC), and Listed in copper sizes 14 to 2 AWG inclusive and aluminum or copper-clad aluminum sizes 12 to 2 AWG inclusive. This cable contains conductors rated 90°C; however, the ampacities of the cable are those of 60°C conductors as specified in Article 334 and Table 310.16 of the NEC. ALthough NM cable is constructed using 90C conductors, the ampacities shall be 60C. #8 NM cable is rated 40A. Period.

680.21(A)(4) is specific and states; (4) One-Family Dwellings. In the interior of dwelling units, or in the interior of accessory buildings associated with a dwelling unit, any of the wiring methods recognized in Chapter 3 of this Code that comply with the provisions of this section shall be permitted. Where run in a cable assembly, the equipment grounding conductor shall be permitted to be uninsulated, but it shall be enclosed within the outer sheath of the cable assembly. 680.3 states; 680.3 Other Articles. Except as modified by this article, wiring and equipment in or adjacent to pools and fountains shall comply with other applicable provisions of this Code, including those provisions identified in Table 680.3. No where in 680 does it permit NM cable outside the dwelling. Nor does it prohibit it. The first section you quoted just says that, in the interior, X is permitted. That's not a prohibition. This is not the section that you want to quote to support your argument. If you want to argue against NM running into an outdoor disconnect box, you might avoid stating that NM is only allowed inside a dwelling. That's really hard to back up. Instead, I'd concentrate on 334.12(B)(4). It prohibits NM in wet or damp locations. Armed with that prohibition, you could say that the NM shouldn't run to the disconnect box because the disconnect box is supposed to be mounted 1/4" away from the outside wall (312.2) and the NM would necessarily have to pass through that space. For the situation in the original post, I think your previous argument, citing 680.25(B), was spot on if there's a breaker in the disconnect box, but I think that most folks didn't catch it. That argument says that the cable that runs to the disconnect is, technically, a feeder (because it comes before the final overcurrent protection device). Because this is a hot tub, there are special rules for feeders that require their grounding conductor to be insulated. (With some exceptions that don't apply here.) - Jim Katen, Oregon I think 680.21(A)(4) is clear enough. Once the building envelope is pierced and the NM cable enteres the disconnect, it is outside the building. Weather it is 1/16" or 16", it is outside. Enough said. "Nor does it prohibit it". Since 680.21(A)(4) clearly reads interior how could that be interpreted any other way?

I have no idea why you posted this very basic information, especially a month later, but let's get it right. The service equipment and service disconnect is in the meter room (first photo). The service size to the unit was what I was describing. Sorry for the late post. I just joined. If nobody is allowed to comment on older threads, maybe it should be posted somewhere. My apologies and Merry Christmas!!

Yes Erik with a K, NOT LESS THAN therefore it needs to be 5' or MORE away from the hot tub. The link you posted above does not apply because this is a SFR and the answer in the link does not qualify SFR. Most of these jobs are with PVC and THWN pulled inside. I just did a job for my aunt like this 2 weeks ago. I pulled NM inside the house and from the exterior disco to the hot tub I pulled THWN, 6/3NM inside the house and #8 THWN outside the house and was able to maintain the 50A required rating.. NEC 110.14©(1)(a)(1) states; (a) Termination provisions of equipment for circuits rated 100 amperes or less, or marked for 14 AWG through 1 AWG conductors, shall be used only for one of the following: (1) Conductors rated 60°C (140°F). #8 is rated 40A @ 60C You left out this part: (3) Conductors with higher temperature ratings if the equipment is listed and identified for use with such conductors. (4) For motors marked with design letters B, C, or D, conductors having an insulation rating of 75°C (167°F) or higher shall be permitted to be used, provided the ampacity of such conductors does not exceed the 75°C (167°F) ampacity. That means all terminations including wirenuts.

680.21(A)(4) is specific and states; (4) One-Family Dwellings. In the interior of dwelling units, or in the interior of accessory buildings associated with a dwelling unit, any of the wiring methods recognized in Chapter 3 of this Code that comply with the provisions of this section shall be permitted. Where run in a cable assembly, the equipment grounding conductor shall be permitted to be uninsulated, but it shall be enclosed within the outer sheath of the cable assembly. 680.3 states; 680.3 Other Articles. Except as modified by this article, wiring and equipment in or adjacent to pools and fountains shall comply with other applicable provisions of this Code, including those provisions identified in Table 680.3. No where in 680 does it permit NM cable outside the dwelling. Also, 680 has nothing to do with outside lighting fixtures and receptacles in any other area except the pool.

The is a clamp for copper tubing. To hell with 110.3(B) listing and labeling. I guess that you do not think that 334.30 is being met be this? Where does it say in 334.30 that the fitting must be listed? This cables are secured and it does not look like they are being damaged by this clamp. What part of Article 300 would this usage violate? 334.30 Securing and Supporting. Nonmetallic-sheathed cable shall be supported and secured by staples, cable ties, straps, hangers, or similar fittings designed and installed so as not to damage the cable, at intervals not exceeding 1.4 m (41#8260;2 ft) and within 300 mm (12 in.) of every outlet box, junction box, cabinet, or fitting. Flat cables shall not be stapled on edge. Sections of cable protected from physical damage by raceway shall not be required to be secured within the raceway. It is a pipe hanger. It is not designed for electrical wiring. Show me the listing requirements in the UL White Book for using this product to support NM cable. It is not there. It violates 110.3(B).

Is that panel supplied by flexible cord?

The service is in the meter room. The size of it is based on the main disconnect rating/service entrance conductor ampacity. The panel in the unit is a subpanel. Its ampacity is based on the size of the feeder breaker/conductor ampacity.

The is a clamp for copper tubing. To hell with 110.3(B) listing and labeling.

I can't find the reference to "total load" but 310.15(B)(6) does state 3-wire feeds. I stand corrected although, for all practical purposes, it would seem the table should still be applicable (if everything was allowed). 310.15(B)(6) states; (6) 120/240-Volt, 3-Wire, Single-Phase Dwelling Services and Feeders. For individual dwelling units of onefamily, two-family, and multifamily dwellings, conductors, as listed in Table 310.15(B)(6), shall be permitted as 120/240-volt, 3-wire, single-phase service-entrance conductors, service-lateral conductors, and feeder conductors that serve as the main power feeder to each dwelling unit and are installed in raceway or cable with or without an equipment grounding conductor. For application of this section, the main power feeder shall be the feeder between the main disconnect and the panelboard that supplies, either by branch circuits or by feeders, or both, all loads that are part or associated with the dwelling unit. The feeder conductors to a dwelling unit shall not be required to have an allowable ampacity rating greater than their service-entrance conductors. The grounded conductor shall be permitted to be smaller than the ungrounded conductors, provided the requirements of 215.2, 220.61, and 230.42 are met. The term "total load" was edited out and the wording was changed to state "main power feeder". In order for this table to be applied the conductors must be the main power feeder (ie. service entrance). Who ever installed this service looked at the table first, saw #4 CU was rated for 100A, mis-applied the intent of the NEC, then figured if the conductors were installed in parallel they would be rated for 200A. Couple that with two wires under one terminal and presto this is what we end up with. AN unsafe installation that should never have passed inspection if there was one. []

This doesn't make the double-tapped set-up right, but we are talking about service feeders here with regards to ratings and 310.15 (B)(6) would be the appropriate table.... #4 cu - 100-amps #3 cu - 110-amps #2 cu - 125-amps #1 cu - 150-amps I agree that two wires under a lug is a violation of 110.3(B). However, 310.15(B)(6) is only applicable when the conductor carries the total load of the dwelling unit. Therefore, my statement of ampacities still stands. My guess is that whoever did the initial install mis-applied 310.4 and compounded the mistake by applying 310.15(B)(6).