heyjaymurphy

jimmy jimmy jimmy NEC limits it to 4, actual gfci devices trip at 3, and (regardless of any NEMA standard any manufacturer claims to adhere to) several brand new appliances and fixtures DO -in fact- cause nuisance tripping. Close minded, much? Okay. If you don't want to believe anything I contributed, that's fine. Please feel free to disregard everything I've said. If you need to see the type of nuisance tripping I've described in order to believe it exists, then only time will tell. Good night, lads!

lolz.

Hi again, Jim! Sorry if my reply to your reply to my post seemed snarky. It was snarky. Mostly because your requests for citations for every sentence I wrote imparted a confrontational edge. This thread is full of unsupported assertions, and I sure don't see how my contribution needed defending above and beyond others' posts. I cited the NEC where it seemed to be germane to the discussion and added some of what I've learned through years of OTJ exposure, cut sheets, trouble shooting, and study of the IBC and NEC, aka "my experience." The original question contained this: I have a friend that is a NEMA (National Electrical Manufacturers Association) representative. He said that appliances must be manufactured with so little current leakage today (and for the last 10-12 years) that there will not be an issue anymore. How is "my friend told me" a fair citation when, "in my experience" isn't? Especially when the "friend" has a dog in the fight i.e. a vested interest in representing manufactured devices as wonderful and infallible? I never claimed to be perfect, and I invite corrections where I am astray. We learn more from our mistakes than from when we are haplessly right. As I said, I am here to share and to learn. I won't lose any sleep over anyone disregarding anything I say. This IS the internet, after all. Whether I can help educate you is a question that is still in the air, but you have certainly helped educate me in various threads. BTW I stand by my comment that newer GFCIs trip at 3mA, but I must have been on crack when I said the old ones tripped at 20-30mA. Cheers!

Hear hear.

Hmm, quite a lot of interest in my post, yet nothing specifically contradicting anything I wrote. Well, I'm here to share and to learn, so I look forward to any supported challenges to any of my assertions. Have fun!

I definitely enjoy some of the hotter "debates" that flourish on the forums, but I'm always curious how many of our colleagues tend to agree with the various views. It's not a matter of criticizing or attacking someone; it's about illuminating how much controversy any particular view actually has. Written exchanges have a tendency of obscuring some of the nuance of discussion. Because this is the internet we lack many of the cues that are useful in non-verbal communication and its nice to restore some of those non verbal cues. But, what can I say? Thanks for the discussion about it!

Hi again! Jim has contributed tons of helpful, thoughtful, and accurate posts to threads all over these forums, so he certainly has my respect. If he wants to dispute anything I've written, then he should have no trouble digging up references and citations to show where I'm wrong. If you read this entire thread you will see that my contribution is apt and relevant, regarding the need for GFCI's specifically for fridges in kitchens and generally in garages. There is nothing illogical about saying, "if you challenge what I am saying, then support your challenge." If anyone finds someone else's post to be dubious, then they can take it, leave it, or disprove it. Cheers!

Dear Jim, If you disagree with what I've written, then it's on you to show where I'm wrong, not on me to do your research for you. If you show me where I'm wrong, in other words if YOU "prove it" then I'll happily concede. I stand by what I wrote which is informed by product literature, code, and experience. Cheers!

Hmm... I can see what you are saying. How about if you hover or right click your cursor over the thumbsups/stars then a little dialog box shows up showing who rated how? Then you still get your quickie mood check on how people feel about the post and if you are interested then you can hover and see who rated how. Each user could even select whether they want to see the amalgamated ratings or have them hidden. Not trying to complicate my own suggestion, but it's a nice way to get info across in a neat little visual package. Anything to unclutter the internet, right? Programming something like this couldn't be much more difficult than programming a hits counter or one of those little animated emoticons.

BX AC and MC cables are acceptable as grounds as long as they are installed per manufacturer's instructions and with the correct connectors. Clearly the cables that are disconnected do not meet this description, but that is a problem with the installation, not the use of the cable as a ground.

Hi all! As far as dwelling unit garages are concerned all plugs DO need to be GFCI protected, but as far as kitchen fridges and GFCI's: My copy of the 2008 NEC says: 210.8 GFCI protection for personnel (A)Dwelling Units (6) Kitchens-- Where the receptacles are installed to serve the countertop surfaces then later it says 210.8 GFIC protection for personnel (B)Other Than Dwelling Units (2)Kitchens My interpretation is that my mother and your mother do not need to have their refrigerators on GFCIs. In my experience lots of appliances--even new ones-- DO cause nuisance tripping, such as certain lighting ballasts and some appliances with motors that draw startup surges. This could be due to the reduced amps required to trip the GFCI. They used to be set to trip around 10 or 20 mA, but newer GFCIs trip closer to 3mA. Nuisance tripping IS a problem, even with new appliances on new GFCIs! If you did happen to want your fridge on a GFCI protected outlet there is no reason the GFCI itself needs to be located behind the fridge. As long as you can find a receptacle "upstream" from it you can add the GFCI there, or even at the breaker. But really I'd say mainly industrial kitchens fall under the new requirement.

Hi all! Whattaya say to this: How about each post on each thread on the forums have a "thumbs up/thumbs down" or "how many out of five stars" click-on rating system? Sort of like on youtube or yahooanswers where users can "rate" other contributers' content. While I am reading folks' posts I am sometimes tempted to chime in on or "second" what they say, but frequently don't have anything urgent to add. I don't want to compose an entire post of my own just to say, "Yeah I agree with this guy." Even when folks do post such responses, the responses can become lost down the page among other posts and replies. If I'm reading a post I find dubious it would be nice to see how most of the other readers react to that post. Sort of like a straw pull on each post. Okay, lemmee have it. Whattaya think?