KGarten

Section P2803.6.1 #13 states that the discharge pipe "be constructed of those materials listed in section P2904.5 (water distribution pipe) or materials tested, rated and approved for such use in accordance with ASME A112.4.1" So no "regular" PVC allowed. The IPC 2003 commentary says "The discharge pipe must have a rating of 100psi at 180 degrees F. Even with this rating, the pipe may be suitable for the even higher temperature of 210 degrees F because the discharge pipe is open to the atmosphere. Water heater temperature relief valves are generally set to open at 210 degrees F."

Ya know, I've seen a few installations like that recently. So many joints in it they might as well have used Copper... Remember when the whole point of PEX was to have piping with as few joints as possible? Despite that, I don't see a lot of this stuff at all. Either it's just not very popular in my area or my kind of clients aren't buying those kind of houses. And I don't mind at all. What is really fun is when you really get into the technical aspects of pex installations that are like this (non manifold installations)with too many joints. For example: if you follow the installation in the picture from left to right and going up through the floor you have a total developed length just from the fittings of 40 feet. Each 90 degree turn in pex is a minimum of 9 feet developed length and a coupling or running tee is 2 feet. Also the interior diameter of pex is substantially smaller the copper. 1-1/2" Pex has the same internal diameter as 1-1/4" copper. And don't let them sell you on the "I can run it at a higher rate of flow" argument. The pressure loss at 7 ft/sec velocity on 4gpm on 1/2" pex is 20psi per 100'. Type L copper running 4gpm will run a velocity of 5ft/sec (which will be a quieter system) with a pressure loss of 10 psi per 100'. This is substantial when you consider the friction losses in pressure due to fittings (copper fittings add 1 foot developed length in 90s and 2 feet on branch tees . Couplings on small copper sizes are not counted at all.) It is easy for the Pex installations like the one shown in the picture to go into a higher range band in the IRC sizing charts. I've seen what should have been a 100' developed length design go into a 250' developed length because of fittings. The problems are worse in larger houses with bigger sizes of pex. I have been in a brand new 5000 sq/ft house where you could turn on a lavatory faucet and then turn on the one right next to it and watch both streams of water get smaller. And turn on the tub and watch the streams get smaller again. All the while the water pressure guage on the system is dropping 2psi, from 52psi down to 50psi. Anyone running a branch and tee system with multiple fittings using pex must substantially upsize the system or it will be noisy and inefficient at best. Manifold systems are the way to go.

http://contractormag.com/columns/yates/cm_column_260/ I think this article does a good job explaining the pros and cons of each type of installation. Too bad the diagrams mentioned in the article are not available (or I couldn't find them).

I respectfully disagree with Terry on never running a dual water heater system in series. My reasoning is that if the house is large enough to require two water heaters then they will be used roughly the same amount with the second tank in the series getting less use, but not enought to make an appreciable amount of difference in the lifespan between the two. I have also heard that if you run water heaters in parallel and the distance from the outlets of the heaters to where they connect together is not equal distance (or close to it) then water will be drawn unequally from among the tanks. Not being a engineer specializing in hydrodynamics I do not know if this is true or just an old plumber's tale.

I don't think that you will find any recommendations on water heater capacity to tub size because there are too many variables (gas vs electric / tank vs tankless vs the new hybrid systems). On conventional gas water heaters a 65 gallon or two 50 gallons in series or parallel would be best. A single tank-type water heater of 50 gallons or under will almost never be enough (unless they have an inline heater on the tub...another one of those variables). In my opinion this is where an appropriately sized tankless gas water heater shines. Always enough hot water to fill the tub without the static cost of heating a couple of tanks of water. BTW, the Kohler catalog that I have lists that most soaker tubs that would fit into a standard tub space have a capacity of about 50 to 70 gallons to the overflow. Deck mounted tubs that can potentially fit two people run about 120 gallons to the overflow. They do list one model as having a 170 gallon capacity (83" long by 64 1/2" wide.) called the Super Bath. Looks more like a wading pool to me.

I would say it is the plumber that would get the call. At least down here all things gas are (usually) the plumbers area of expertise. Most of the vent extensions I have seen are run out of soldered copper which ac guys don't play around with much, if at all. The utility guys will probably think you are nuts for even asking, in my experience. Once they install their basic items (meter, stops, etc) they are done. Might be different in your area, 'tho.

The International Fuel Gas code (2006) prohibits gas piping from being made out of cast iron (section 403.4.1) although fittings may be made from cast iron. ("Regular" metal gas pipe is steel or wrought iron). There are are number of exceptions to the fittings with bushings not being allowed (section 403.10.4 note 5.2). The code commentary states that "bushings have been known to split from over tightening." Also section 404.3 prohibits bushings of any material to be used in concealed locations, with the commentary stating the "split after assembly" reason. The National Fuel Gas Code (NFPA 54) has the same restrictions.

Sanitary tees are not allowed to be used in a horizontal to horizontal drainage configuration (IPC table 706.3). I don't think it being on a pump discharge line would make any difference. I'm not sure the pressure 90 (or quarter bend, if you like) should be used either. I would have also preferred the check valve installed on the horizontal pipe as it will be holding quite a head of water in a vertical installation.

I only get the rocks of despair at my house. I guess that's something else I'm doing wrong.[:-propell

Wrong choice of word on "distribution". My apologies.[:-ouch]

ABS is allowed for water service pipe by the IPC on table 605.3. My old UPC 97 code book has it listed in the Manditory Referenced Standards section under Water Service. As for the ABS turning story, I have no confirmation but I have dealt with certain pipes that will wilt in the sun (the one I am thinking of is a current type of acid waste piping system). I am certain that in the DFW area that I have not seen ABS pipe, cement or fittings at a supply house (much less an installation using it) in at least ten years. I don't know the reason, but it does not seem to be used down here anymore. And I agree that the pool installation mentioned in this thread is almost certainly not ABS.

ABS is code allowed for water distribution but it must have a marking on it designating that the pipe is pressure rated ("PR"). It will also have the NSF 61 marking on it. As to the ABS pipe itself, in this area (DFW) it is almost impossible to find ABS now. Apparently ABS was in use over 15 years ago, but was phased out because of problems with the heat down here. I was told by older plumbers that during summer it was frequently someone's job to go out and turn the ABS so that it would not bend from the heat while it was on the truck's rack. If the piping is ABS then you will have to find some abs to pvc cement. It will be specifically marked for this purpose (Hercules cement for this purpose has a brown label and says ABS/PVC cement). Check a plumbing supply store (not Home Depot or Lowes).

I believe that configuration would be acceptable matching the intent of the code. It would be a smoother connection and would reduce the potential of stop-ups in my opinion because you would not have to deal with the pipe size reduction caused by the baffle in a wye branch tailpiece.

IPC 802.1.6 Domestic dishwashing machines: "...or discharge into a wye branch fitting on the tailpiece of the kitchen sink or the dishwasher connection of a food waste grinder." Which means the connection must be made before the p-trap to prevent sewer gas from coming in this way.

I would check with the city water department and check if they are using meters with check valves. Many cities in this area have gone to this system to protect their water supply from back flow and back pressure. A water leak of "just" 2 or 3 gallons an hour would probably not cause enough system displacement for the meter to move; it would be more like just bleeding off pressure at first. Cities around here started meter change outs to this type about ten years ago. They do NOT notify residents of such a change in advance, generally speaking. This is also a good question to ask because if the system has the check valve at the meter the water heater now requires an expansion tank, as it is now a "closed system." If the system does not have the check valve the triangle (or other ounce meter) would definitely be a good gauge of a leak.

From the IMC 2003 commentary: IMC 401.7 "Contaminant Sources" commentary:"As with all exhaust systems addressed in this code, the exhaust must extend to and terminate at he outdoors. The exhaust termination must be approved and comply with sections 401.5 and 401.5.2. Attics and crawl spaces are not considered to be outdoors and exhaust ducts cannot terminate in these spaces. Exhaust ducts must connect directly to terminals that pass through the building envelope to the outside atmosphere.Pointing, aiming or similarly directing as exhaust pipe as an attic louver, grille, ridge vent, eave vent or soffit vent, for example, in no way ensures that any or all of the exhaust will reach the outdoors. In fact it is possible that the majority, if not all, of the exhaust vapors and gasses will discharge to the attic space rather than the outdoors. In the case of a duct that turns down to a soffit vent, the exhaust can rise into the attic as opposed to falling through the perforated soffit. The flow of air through any attic ventilation opening is dependent on attic temperature, wind direction, wind speed, and opening configuration and location. In other words, attic air movement is unpredictable and may often be in the opposite direction to that intended. Additionally, grills and louvers offer resistance and interfere with the exhaust flow directed at them. This may cause deflection of exhaust back into the attic. In cold climates, discharge of exhaust air into an attic space can result in moisture condensation on structural and insulation materials."

From the 2003 IPC code commentary: "Piping installed within or under a footing or foundation wall must be structurally protected from any transfered loading from the footing or foundation wall. This protection may be provided through the use of a relieving arch or a pipe sleeve." As this pipe appears to be coming up through the floor there should be no issue with that bit of code. A wrap or sleeve to protect against foundational movement probably should have been put in place.

Is this taking place in an area with city inspectors? If these are repairs that are ongoing a permit should be pulled if strict code is followed (and depending on which code is adopted.) It would certainly take the problem out of your hands...or give you a hammer to make them do it your way. (IPC 106.1)

Maximum horizontal spacing on PEX support/hangers is 32" (table 308.5 IPC and manufacturer) specifications. Also 308.3 IPC states that "hangers, anchors and supports shall support the piping. " Kind of a "duh" but it looks like the pex has strap tape loosely wrapped around it. If i pushed down on the pex and it had give I would say it is not supported.

It is almost certainly polyethylene pipe which is allowed for by International Code as water service pipe. Being plastic, this means it "must terminate within 5 feet inside of the point where the pipe penetrates an exterior wall or slab on grade." (IPC 605.3). Judging from the 14/2 Romex taped to it I think it might have exceeded the 5'.[]

IPC section 1002.1 says what Jerry said about 24" max vertical distance from fixture outlet to trap weir. The commentary of the code mentions the self siphoning by velocity and also bacteria growth on longer lengths of pipe causing odors.

I would definitely count the draft hood as part of the vent in considering clearances. I went out and used an IR thermometer to shoot temps on my 50 gallon gas water heater while it was running. Water heater is in a closet in the garage. Temp at the fume hood edge where it flairs out closest to the water connections was 210 deg F. The temp for the 12" single wall vent above the draft hood was 100 deg F. The vent then has two 45 deg bends to offset the vent which had a temp of 145 deg F. It then transitions into type B double wall that had a temperature of 160 deg F. Temperature of the copper flex connectors closest to the 210 deg draft hood edge was 110 deg F. It is my personal preference that the pex should stop in the wall and transition to copper stub outs with copper flex or solid connections to the water heater. If you have a leaking water heater that you are trying to shut off I would want my shut off valve in a solid material that I could easily get to instead of trying to shut off a valve installed on pex that is potentially flopping all over the place. As an aside, a case could be made that a pex ball valve is not a full flow valve as required by code at the water heater. But that's a different story/argument...[]

Actually the IRC does have something on it. G2427.7.7 Clearances (in the fuel gas section) and the appropriate table. If I remember correctly, type b vents are going to allow 1" clearance to combustibles. Single wall will be the 6" clearance. Defining pex as combustible is where it gets fun. You have to go to ASTM standard E 136 to get that. The short version is anything put in a 750 degree centigrade test that does not burst into flame in the first 30 second or lose more than half it's mass in 30 minutes is considered noncombustible. I think pex would fail the second of those tests. My opinion would be direct vent would be fine, 1" from type b vents and 6" from single wall vents (so probably inappropriate).

Out of curiosity, I would like to ask how many people here have seen a pipe embedded in concrete that has been broken by foundational movement? I'm not counting when a foundation has been repaired and the repair caused residual breakage. I've seen breaks from foundation fixes, roots in the yard, settling under the house on horizontal cast iron pipe joints, copper water lines in contact with the concrete corroded away but never pvc breaking or even cracking because of settling issues. This being said, I know I haven't seen everything out there.[]

The slip joint waste and overflow looks like it has the bottom slip nut connection buried in the concrete, which is not allowed. (IPC 405. The plastic passing through the concrete is a different issue. Some municipalities around here (D/FW area) require it to be wrapped in 5 mil plastic. In my experience I have not seen a piece of PVC or ABS that has reacted with concrete in any meaningful way, so I would consider that a minor point (if not irrelevant). The code commentary for IPC section 305.1 specifically mentions brass, copper, cast iron and steel as the only materials that are required to be protected from corrosion. And make sure of the code the area uses. IRC (and IPC) versus UPC are very different in many important details (venting especially).