DLRambo

To Integrity First - Why don't you tell us a little about yourself. Where are you located?? Who are you?? Step out of the woodwork, we don't bite! Well not really hard anyway! Dan Bowers

The Midwest Pro-ASHI Chapter has the same sort of pains going on as in Gulfstream ASHI. Several of our longtime members have dropped out of ASHI. Partly because of "Branding", partly due to being fed up with what they consider ASHI Politics. Among others that have dropped out are last years Chapter President; last years Chapter Vice President; our current Chapter Vice President; our immediate Past Treasurer; one of last years COR Reps; and our Chapter Membership Committe Chair. "Branding" was not the only reason, it was just the icing on the cake. We have another ASHI Chapter in close proximity to us, and they seem to have a goal to break down our Chapter and get us under their wing so they can control HI's in the west half of Missouri and most of Kansas. We've been highly anti-licensing, they've been pro-licensing. That seems to have gained them some favor with National ASHI. Unfortunately, National has played into their hands beautifully. Every year for 4-5 years now they've filed etics complaints with National ASHI against our chapter or members of our chapter. The last complaint they filed was because we held our annual seminar the same month they had theirs and they didn't make as much as they'd planned on. Over the past few years they've complained about our Chapter name, our choice of meeting nights, even about Chapter Flyers we gave out. One of the flyers we gave out said "Professional or Amateur, Its Your Choice When Choosing A Home Inspector". The flyer then listed all the Midwest Pro-ASHI Chapter Members. They wanted ASHI to make us quit giving those flyers out (it seems they felt we were besmirching anyone not part of our Chapter). This other chapter also had neat little marketing ideas to help increase their chapters size like giving multi-man companies group discounts to switch chapters; or offering 2 years FREE membership in their chapter to any of our members that attended their annual seminar; or offering to pay the 2nd half of the "Branding" dues if our members would switch chapters. We've for the most part simply ignored them. I'm not sure why exactly but the "Branding" with increased dues just simply seemed to be the catalyst that pushed some of our guys over the edge. With ASHI's Policy of guests may attend 2 meetings then must join ASHI, many of our guys are starting to go to the bi-monthly meetings of NAHI,NACHI or KAREI (Kansas Inspectors) because they welcome all inspectors, etc. Dan Bowers, CRI ASHI #1038

Guys - to be fair to all parties I'd like to throw in a little food for thought. As a 26 year veteran home inspector and inspection trainer, that has done 3 tours on ASHI's National BOD, and been President of 2 different ASHI Chapters here are some thoughts. When I joined ASHI in 1984, they were the only NATIONAL Show in town. Their Standards were the ones we all strived to emulate. Their entry requirements in 1984 were stiff. It took 1,000 inspections, the tests, and an on-site Peer Review of other ASHI Members to become designated a "Senior Member" of ASHI. There used to be 5 categories of membership in ASHI. At one time there were 3 Tests to pass for ASHI membership. That was then - this is today. Today there are several National or State Associations that although not as well know as ASHI, have Standards, Tests, etc that are more user friendly, more stringent, etc than ASHI's. As an example, several recent graduates of our training classes have taken both the ASHI/NHIE Test and the NAHI CRI exam in the same month and told us the NAHI test was more stringent. In a college class I teach, we use the ASHI and NAHI Standards for our students (homebuyers mostly). They almost unaimously choose the NAHI Standards as easier to read and understand. As far as the quality of Home Inspectors go - 4 of the worst 5 home inspectors I know in my area are long time ASHI Members. Bottom Line - We all owe a lot to ASHI for developing Industry Standards and getting our profession up and running - BUT ASHI is no longer the ONLY show in town. Dan Bowers, CRI ASHI #1038

Kevin - Here in Kansas City we mostly see them on skip sheathing. In St. Louis, Rolla, Topeka I often see them on OSB or plywood. Its not the 1st choice of the Cedar Shake & Shingle Bureau BUT allowed. With our typical wood roof in KC being ready for the trash can by 16 years and with the high cost compared to a good quality comp roof - you'd think someone would try to get every bit of life out of them that was possible and not use solid sheathing.

Brian - Whats the problem, they don't seem to be leaking. Don't be an alarmist. Dan Bowers (the realestators friend)

Here in Kansas City I've heard rumors and old wife's tales about things like: ice and water shields on roofing; bathroom exhaust fans that vent to the outside (versus terminating in the attic); and about weep holes in brick siding - but I think they're just fairy tales handed down from one generation of Home Inspectors to another generation, BECAUSE in 26 years of inspecting I've never seen them. Either that or they must be terribly expensive, or why wouldn't our quality conscious builders put them in. Dan Bowers, CRI (From The Real World)

Because they're so inexpensive today, most electricians in my area stick GFCI's everywhere. But 15 years ago in my area it was quite common to see an outlet in the garage, the exterior, and maybe 2 bathrooms go back to 1 GFCI breaker in the main panel (cost savings). In my area, the codes did not require a GFCI in the kitchen 15-16 years ago. Dan Bowers

Forgive me for being flippant, but it seems you're making a lot over something very simple. Example: While examining the electrical panel we noted several significant and potentially hazardous safety conditions: These conditions include but are not limited to: (a) xxxxx; (b) yyyy; and © zzzz. We recommend having a competent and licensed electrician read our report, review the system and then repair nd/or replace components as needed to ensure a safe and properly wired electrical system that meets or exceeds the TTTT Code. Because of the safety potential this poses in its current condition, we recommend this be done prior to closing. Do the same with the roof and mold and get done.

Two local inspectors recently took BOTH the NHIE and NAHI's Brand New CRI Exam, and said the NEW NAHI CRI Exam was a little tougher. Its in the PYCHOMETICALLY REVIEW Process right now and about completed so we hear. Guys that have taken the Texas Test say its STOUT. In my area we have way more new inspectors passing the NHIE than passed the OLD ASHI Tests.

Testing Of New Home Inspectors - Once upon a time about 4-5 years ago in a far away magical Kingdom, A highly placed STAFF MEMBER of a GIANT Association of Knights called a secret meeting of the "Knights of the Round Table". These were a selected group of Knights that sort of governed the GIANT Knight Group. At the meeting several topics were discussed. The first was that they had a really nifty test to see if new Knights were qualified. They were going to PUSH this test on other Kingdoms as being the only REAL test for Knighthood in the whole world. The problem however was twofold - (1) Too many of the NEWBIE Wantabee Knights were failing the Test, and that didn't make the Knights of the Round Table look good in the eyes of other Kingdoms - solution - lower the amount of Dragons the NEWBIES had to slay to Win. (2) One of the OLDER KNIGHTS taking the NEW TEST to challenge his skills in Jousting, realized that maybe there was NO CORRECT ANSWER or MULTIPLE CORRECT ANSWERS on 15 to 20 of the questions about Dragon Slaying. He RAISED this issue. At that point the Knights of The Round Table had a tough decision to make. Should they fess up, or keep quiet?? Some Knights feared if they fessed up, that the Kingdoms they were trying to convince to use this NEW TEST on Slaying Dragons would realize it might not be such a HOTSIE Deal. Other Knights, the King and STAFF feared the loss of revenue, if they told Knights that had previously failed - they had instead PASSED. Other Knights (some since killed in battle or others no longer a part of the Round Table) said we gotta do what's right - end of conversation. After a heated and pitched battle lasting hours, a compromise was reached. They'd take the BAD Dragon Questions out, and go back 3 months and notify FAILED KNIGHTS they had PASSED - but say no more to others less they lose face with other Kingdoms. One of the Knights at the MEETING asked the Magician that had VALIDATED the NEW TEST, how it STACKED UP against the OLD TESTS (there had been 3 tests once upon a time to become a Knight). Merlin said his Elfs had looked at that - and due to the fact that the OLDER TESTS were so much longer, AND had required a HIGHER SCORE to PASS - HE felt they were different test but just as equal a TEST for KNIGHTS. The King did not like Merlins answer. And so life goes onward and upward.

Jim - You've got my point exactly. I'm old and have been exposed to mold and my mind rambles,...... Now please record the date and time so I can use you as an expert witness when I sue my landlord for mold or whatever!! Yes, you got exactly what I was saying on both points - The humor in the new guys complaining how hard it is to take a test, do 50 home inspections, etc. As well as the fact that even the most stringent laws for HI's on the books today don't get rid of our bad apples - cause we got somebody else in our business helping them survive. In the Kansas City area over the past 12 years, the Board or Realestators has put together 3 different task forces to deal with the home inspection problems. Each time they put together one of these task forces, they came to the the old line and large Inspection Companies and got us to participate by discussing the fly-by-night inspectors, etc that give us all a bad name. Guess what - each time, when 25-30 inspectors met with the Broker / Owners of the 10-12 main Real Estate Offices. As soon as the meetings started,the HOME INSPECTOR problems, that the realestators wanted to deal with were: he says too much (the report killed the deal); he stayed too long (over 2 hours was too long); the reports are too big (over 6 pages was too big); etc, etc, etc. So life goes on. I don't see this as ever being a real profession until we can control our own industry and its rules (not the used house commissioned sales person pulling the chains); and until getting into the profession really takes some sweat and tears - not 50 home inspections, 1 test and a 1 week long class. Dan Bowers

You're exactly right. Over the past 20 years I've seen home inspectors, code inspectors, builders, engineers, etc that are top drawer. But in each of these professions, I've also seen people that would be doing the general public and their chosen profession a HUGE favor by switching jobs and selling snake oil. Some are new - others are 15-20 year veterans. We always say time or the marketplace will take care of weeding out the bad apples. Well maybe it does for some - but I've seen a whole lot of bad ones with 8 years or more experience, just getting worse - BUT many of them are real popular with the realestators, etc. AND they just seem to keep getting BIGGER. Last year they had 2 inspectors, this year they have 3 inspectors. Last year they got sued 3 times - this year you've heard of 4 suits and we're only into the summer. As I heard a realestator recently say - "XXX Home Inspection Company really knows how to treat an older home, they don't pick it to death and scare the buyers. After all no house is perfect. And they know how valuable our time is and almost always have us out of the home in 1-1.5 hours. Besides all that they give our clients a THOROUGH and beautiful 20 page computerized report FILLED with all kinds of photos of the front of the house and the bedrooms, and the chip in the cover of the electrical outlet". Will licensing help - in my locale their are 3 licensed engineers I know that are so builder or realestator friendly that FHA has rejected their reports for years (fluff reports - "The seller indicated the wood shingle roof was the original roof installed when he built the house 23 years ago. It shows wear and deterioration typical for a roof of this age. If the NEW BUYER applies ONGOING and ROUTINE maintenance, in my opinion this roof should continue to shed water for the remainder of its life-span". All 3 of these guys are TOP SHELF from the real estate communitys point of view. If we had HI licensing - they'd probably be exempted due to their profession. So someone else pick up the thread and keep running with it.

Every once in awhile on varied inspector forums, I see new HI's complaing about proposed licensing requirements in their state. Many of their complaints are centered around required schooling; required years of doing HI; how many inspections are needed before being licensed; or grandfathering. Its made me stop and think about when I first got into HI full time. In 1984 when I left Texas and moved north, there was nothing else outside of CREIA in California - so I joined ASHI. At that time they had 5 levels of membership. From ground zero they were as follows: Apprentice Member (4); Technical Nominee (50); Intern Member (550); Associate Member (750); & Senior Member (1,000). The numbers after the levels were the required number of inspections. Until you got to be an Associate Member you could not use their logo or claim to belong. Because I'd been doing HI's part-time in Texas since 1976, I went in as an Intern Member. I was living in a semi-small Missouri Town (population 65,000 at that time), surrounded by smaller farm towns. I qualified for the Associate Membership level about 2 years later. The following year I met the quota for Senior Member AND the next month they abandoned that program and went to 2 levels of membership (Member & Candidate). Although I had done HI's part-time since 1976 - in 1984 when I decided to go at it full time, I spent $1,455 on air fare, hotel, and tuition and went to the D.C area to take a week long home inspection training program. I'm not the only old inspector (57 yrs old) by a long shot that came up this way. Which is exactly why you see some of the rules you do being dropped into the licensing acts. By the way, 20 years ago talking a realestaor or often even a home buyer into getting a home inspection was like tring to get a 800 pound gorilla to hold still for a proctology examination. For the record 1 yrs experience or 50 home inspections ain't squat. I've always been kinda partial to 5/1,000. Dan Bowers

Architectural details indicate they should have installed one. I see this all the time, and most of the time it has never created a significant problem. But, I've also done 3 expert witness cases (1 on a local TV show with an investigative reporter) where the joints were not present, and it cost the owner over $40,000 in repairs, mold clean-up, etc. By the time the house makes it to 5-7 years with no significant problems you're usually safe, but.................. Dan Bowers (Kansas City)

They painted it white to match the trim. As Hi's we like to worry a lot. As old as it looks do you think its a bad idea to have it sitting on a wood floor?? By the way is it closer to the combustible wall surface than is considered safe?? Is there any kind of paint that could be used to paint a metal flue that gets hot (or any type of metal that gets reall hot)?? If so, what type?? Have we done paint chip analysis to determine the type of paint on that flue??. Good luck and nice photo.

PS for Kevin - Many of the things I mentioned as a trigger to recommend an experts evaluation of the furnace in my previous post, could be caused by other conditions than just defects in the HE. But, they would all be things I would use to get my client more of an in-depth evaluation of the HE than what you or I can do in a Visual HI.

Kevin - As a graduate of a year long Vo-Tech program in HVAC back in the early 70's, a ME Degree with a major in HVAC, and a past Factory Rep for a Major Manufacturer of HVAC equipment let me throw out a few facts regarding checking for holes or cracks in a HE, or checking a HE for carbon monoxide. If you can see a hole or a crack - terrific. If not, like George said - there are several methods to use that may lead you to believe there is PROBABLY a defect in the HE - BUT the ONLY totally SURE way is to TAKE IT APART. We have set up units in the factory where we put varied size holes or cracks in the HE's and then run and monitored them for CO for weeks. Under certain conditions and with the proper temperature, humidity, pressure, etc. they did not leak CO - even with golf ball sized holes. Bottom Line - If the unit is very old, very rusty, has excess rust flakes on the burn chamber walls or on the burners themselves, has any kind of funky flame patterns (heavy yellow flames, flame roll-out, flame lift-off or flames going in different directions, etc) recommend that your client "Have a compentent and Licensed Heating Contractor Evaluate the specified conditions, verify the full integrity of the HE, and then repair or replace as needed". You probably already know this but, in our area you'll run into Vampires at the HyVee at Noon more often than you'll run into an oil furnace or boiler. I've seen 2 since I moved back to KC in 1989. When I mentioned that at a local ASHI meeting (with about 45 guys present) nobody else had ever seen one other than in books. Dan Bowers, CRI

Last week I did an expert witness case, where among 100 other defects the roofer, installer, home owners cousin Ernie, or somebody had done some unique roof repairs. Since "H-Clips" were not used and the 2x4 rafters were spaced at about 33" centers, and the cripple wall in the attic supporting the rafters were 2x2's spaced every 8' or so - there was a witty bit of a sag in the roof. The unique roof repair was going into the attic and taking pieces of 1x4's and putting them under the plywood seams and nailing them in place - with the nails going STRAIGHT UP. Walking the roof was a delicate situation to keep from spiking my feet (I was wearing my soft soled climbing tennies). How did I discover the unique roof repairs?? I wish I could say - from the attic, but that was not the case. Thankfully after the 1st nail and I became intimately acquainted, it was only 2 hours till I was done and could stop by the Med Clinic for a Tetnus Shot.

When choosing software or a good quality narrative type checklist, the one thing I feel is of most importance is how it feels to YOU. It has to gel with your personality. If my toilet is leaking, I don't want some longwinded dimwit in love with their own voice trying to explain the history of indoor plumbing, or where toilets were invented or other such gibberish that is so bloody boring, you can't stay awake to hear what they said. Just tell me my toilet is leaking because the bowl is cracked and needs to be repaired or replaced. If I want more info on toilets I'll get it from the plumber thats replacing it. In short - get to the point, and do it FAST - or I'll kill you and all your children. But there are different personality types - for example an accountant or computer programmer might have to hear the full history of indoor plumbing to feel comfortable with your report. Don't ask me what I like, look inside yourself. Dan Bowers

How big is the hole - it looked awful big for a nail. We see damages that look like that several times a week around the passive roof vents in an attic. I've never written them up.

Its totally common, proper and up to code to vent an "inducer draft" furnace together with a natural draft appliance into the same chimney, flue, etc. IT IS NOT CORRECT to vent a "forced draft" furnace with a "natural draft" appliance together. Dan Bowers

Yeah, what everybody else works for me too. As for the pictures of the girlfriend, etc. - very revealing ones in glamour poses helps us to understand you better and helps us concentrate on assisting you with your questions. Here's Hoping in Kansas Dan Bowers

Like they said already, being in California -look at CREIA to start. Taking the NHIE does not have anything to do with you being able to do home inspections - its just a test and there are many of them depending on where you're at and which group you belong to. The NHIE used to be ASHI's test then it got renamed and packaged to make it easier to promote in states with licensure. In my area we've had a much higher passing rate on people taking the NHIE than when it was the ASHI test. I've had guys fail the old ASHI test 3 or 4 times then take the NHIE and sail thru - they said it was easier than the old ASHI tests. Two of our local inspectors (under 5 months in business) recently took the new NAHI exam for the CRI designation, and then took the NHIE just to try it. Both said the NHIE was easier than NAHI's exam. Dan Bowers

Don - Earlier today I did a nice older house (85 years old) in Kansas City. It had 3 central HVAC systems to replace the old Boiler and window A/C units. One of the heating units was an upright furnace mounted in the attic. When you pop the SMALL attic hatch (about 18" x 18") you can see the furnace at the far end of the attic (about 35' - 40' away). There is no light of any kind; they have blown in extra insulation (about 10" deep); there is no SECURE walking surface other than kicking insulation out of your way and looking for a ceiling joist; the GREY flex branch ducts criss-cross the attic in front of the unit; the sheetmetal main trunk lines for return and supply air RUN immediately in front of the furnace blower door with a 4" clearance between ducts and furnace; no room for a work platform in front of the burners if you wanted one; 2' clearance between the upright furnace and the wood rafters and wood shingle roof above it. Question #1 - can you find any defects with the above scenario? Question #2? - If the inspector has to take his belt off, slip it through the gap between rafters and shingles and use that as a loop to hang onto while leaning over the ducts (many of which are already smashed for some reason)and trying to get the door and flashguard off the 20 year old furnace - do you think this unit has received / will receive typical servicing by HVAC contractors or even regular filter changes from the homeowner?? Dan in Kansas City

Some people use it for reference material others don't. Like someone already said if a house built in 1968 does not have GFCI's its not a defect (except maybe in Texas). But if the house was in a major metro area and built in 1986 and didn't have GFCI's anywhere - the chart might be a handy reference as to why the inspector CHOSE to REPORT it as A DEFECT rather than an as a nice UPGRADE. DAn Bowers, CRI