dtontarski

This was the only corrosion on the unit and on the copper pipes running to and from it. What are the signs of electrolysis.....what should I be looking for?

Should I be concerned about the corrosion on this boiler? Should I call this out - if so, how? This was functioning as designed, had no evidence of an active leak, and was recently tagged as serviced. Thanks. Click to Enlarge 82.77 KB

Quote: Originally posted by dtontarski Plus - We discussed that PEX should not be used as a PRV extension pipe material. Marc - Sorry for the delayed response. (It's hunting season....not inspecting season up here) You inquired as to whether I was referring to the Pressure Relief Valve when I used the abbreviation PRV - Yes I was. Since posting this, I have been doing some additional online research on this, and as usual, have come up with various opinions on the acceptability of using standard 3/4" PEX on this unit's PRV. First off, the opinions of most is that PEX is an approved Temperature & Pressure Relief Valve discharge piping material. However - one online plumbing forum poster contributed this: "Standard PEX is not allowed according to Watts. I know that there is going to be allot of plumbers out there that are going to say it can be and they do is all the time. As the fittings interior diameter is less than 3/4 inch. And according to the code the pipe cannot be downsized nor restricted. The only PEX that is allowed is the PEX discharge pipe supplied by the manufacture for that purpose. As the fittings are the correct size for the valve. And the pipe has to be secured to the tank. I have yet been able to find anywhere that you can find that correct fitting by itself. Nor a tool to stretch the PEX over the fitting and properly secure it." I spent some time trying to verify this on the Watts site, but I could not. I did however find PEX discharge pipes on both the Reliance and the A.O. Smith sites. (and as previously posted - the Rinnai representative I spoke to implied 3/4" PEX was not approved) One of the key issues that I had not considered prior to researching this, as the above poster pointed out was that "the pipe has to be secured". Further research defined this as secured 32" oc.....because as another poster cited: "Nobody wants TPRV discharge "a-flipping" and "a-flopping" around when exposed to high temp or high pressure relief evacuation." This was likened to a fire hose that got away from the fire fighter....which I thought was a great visual. One of the biggest points of contention was regarding the requirement that discharge piping could not be downsized nor restricted, and what that meant in terms of using 3/4" standard PEX. One poster claimed that this was referring to the nominal size, and therefore even though the inside diameter of 3/4" PEX is smaller than this, that this did not matter. The majority of the posters disagreed with this and stated that the inside diameter was what should be considered....some of what I have previously posted supports this. So, for the moment, I'm going to base my call on what the local code guys are allowing, but I will likely call out that if PEX is being used, that it should be secured in order to prevent "a-flipping and a-flopping"....regardless if this is a local code guy requirement or not. Further dialogue, opinions, codes, manufacturer's listing information, etc. would be appreciated on the discharge piping sizing issue. Thanks.

Charlie - I discussed the PEX connection to the water heater with a Rinnai representative today. He confirmed that there is no Rinnai documentation that prohibits this. I also confirmed what earlier posts have discussed - PEX can generally be connected directly to both electric and gas water heaters, providing that the PEX is kept at least 6" away from the exhaust vent of the gas units, and providing there is nothing in the water heater manufacturer's installation manual, or in the locally enforced codes, that specifically prohibits a direct connection. Plus - the Rinnai rep said that there is no Rinnai documentation that would prohibit the immediate reduction from 3/4" to 1/2" on the water supply lines, but he agreed, as other posters, that this was not a standard method by which to plumb this, and was surprised that this was completed this way in new home with as many plumbing fixtures as this one had. An archived post on a plumber's forum suggested the following demonstration be done for the homeowner (who was not present during my inspection) - he said to turn on the hot water first at the kitchen faucet, then in both upstairs showers, and to then start the washing machine (on a hot wash setting). The poster said this would most likely clearly demonstrate the inadequacies of this type of set-up. Plus - We discussed that PEX should not be used as a PRV extension pipe material.

David - I believe that you nailed it with "ridiculously inadequate". This unit serves every plumbing fixture in a new nearly 3,000 square foot home with 3 baths. I've been googling this for hours, and though I never found the specific information I was looking for, I am now convinced that this requires further evaluation, and likely some re-plumbing. Thanks.

Charlie - I did not call out the PEX being directly connected to the water heater. Based on this previous post, this seemed to be more of an overheating of the PEX near a vent issue: https://www.inspectorsjournal.com/forum ... IC_ID=9171 I'm going to give Rinnai a call next week regarding this install and follow up to this post with any helpful information I receive. Thanks -

Sounds like I should just cite the specific issues that do not comply with the manufacturer's installation instructions (that I am certain about), recommend that the installation be further evaluated, and that all installation deficiencies be corrected by a qualified professional. Short of going way beyond the scope of my job and calculating "the water pressure, the meter/service pipe size, and the number of fixture units that it supplies", is it safe (accurate) to say that there is an issue with the water supply line reductions? Still looking for opinions (not necessarily code cites) on whether it is wrong to make these reductions, when the instruction manual clearly states that 3/4" hot and cold supply lines are required. I have never seen water supply line reductions right beneath a unit like this.

I've yet to see a single on-demand water heater installed per the manufacturer's instructions. I generally write up the most obvious installation deficiencies, provide an embedded link to the manufacturer's installation manual, recommend corrections be made by a qualified professional, and when possible, provide side-by-side photos of the deficiency versus how things should have been done. I like to include the side-by-side photos, as I've come to realize that the majority of my clients don't take the time to read my full reports or follow links - the photos suffice for these folks. Does anyone have any photos they would be willing to share of the proper exterior vent termination of a Rinnai Model R75LSi? The manufacturer's manuals contain diagrams that are not very clear to anyone other than the installer that has all of the tangible parts right in their hands. The exterior install on this one was very shoddy, and finishing components are missing. (and yes - I realize this unit must be relocated, as it is less than 12" from an inside corner) One more request - the installation manual calls for 3/4" hot and cold water supply lines - the individual that installed this unit had 3/4" PEX connected to the valves at the base of the unit, but both lines were immediately (within several inches) reduced to 1/2" PEX). (Yes - The missing PRV extension pipe was called out) Plumbing is not my strong suit, but it would seem logical to me that the cold water supply line would have to be 3/4" right from the source (the interior meter in this case), and I'm not clear on the specifics of at what point the hot water supply line can be reduced, but within a few inches seems to defeat the purpose of this manufacturer's requirement. A better understanding of this is what I am looking for. Thanks. Click to Enlarge 36.8 KB Click to Enlarge 59.28 KB

Tony - Thanks for the link.

Thanks - you're right about the grading, but not the whole house just a couple of walls. Not a new home....a country church converted to a contemporary home. Flipped churchs and flipped homes are about the same....as far as the level of workmanship. Thanks for the general info on the vent termination issue. I'll research this a bit more when I have time, and talk to the local code guy and post any pertinent info I discover.

What are the rules for the termination height above the grade for a tankless water heater vent? The Bosch Model GWH 2400 CTD EFS LP unit I saw installed the other day had its vent terminated within 15" of the grade. This seems too close with the snow we get in this area. I couldn't find any installation guides online for this model. I called this install out as questionable and recommended my client add this to the list of questions to pose to the local code inspector, but I expect I'll be seeing a lot more of these and I need to improve my knowledge this topic. Anyone have or know where I can get more info on this? Thanks. Click to Enlarge 50.7 KB

Sorry....I got busy....which is a good thing....February is usually dead in this area. To respond - First off - I agree this is poor location for a main disconnect..for all of the reasons stated, plus it is in an area of a basement in this 1910 Bungalow that has an earth floor with no vapor retarding barrier. This will likely result in corrosion damage. This is the home's main disconnect, it is within 6'7" (just within) of the floor and it is clearly marked on and off. (so no slithering required - that was last week's weekend cabin....tough to identify all the small critter skeletal remains I had to slither through in this lovely crawl) The distribution panel is properly wired as such. Well pretty much anyway....some genius do-it-yourselfer always pulls the cover and installs at least 1-equipment grounding conductor on the neutral terminal bar. Thanks for the review and comments.

I observed a main disconnect installed on the ceiling of a crawlspace. This panel is installed between the floor joist oriented down towards the floor. Is there any code violation here? Is this an acceptable method of installation? More Info - this feeds a new 100 amp distribution panel in the home's full basement. Click to Enlarge 40.29 KB

Thanks everyone - I assumed that was what was going on....but thanks to this forum.....I'm able to minimize the risk associated with assuming. Thanks for the quick feedback.

Greetings - I don't see a lot of boilers and I have never observed one of these before. This was mounted on the ceiling of an unfinished basement in the laundry area. Please help me identify what I am looking at. Thanks! Click to Enlarge 46.96 KB

Good question and a legitimate concern - I pulled this off the internet: How does EPS behave in case of fire? Like practically all organic building materials polystyrene foam is combustible. However in practice its burning behaviour depends on the conditions under which it is used, as well as the inherent properties of the material. These inherent properties differ depending on whether the cellular material is made from EPS with or without a fire retardant additive. The bonding of other materials to cellular polystyrene also considerably affects its burning behaviour. When installed correctly, expanded polystyrene products do not present an increased fire hazard. It is strongly recommended that expanded polystyrene should always be protected by a facing material. See more at: http://www.eumeps.org/faq.htm So - if the current owner, or a future owner was to have this vermiculite polystyrene bead mix covered over professionally with another layer of appropriate insulation, this should lower the (potential) fire risk and help to keep any friable asbestos fibers from being disturbed. I haven't completed this report yet. My plan is warn the current owner not to disturb this and to expect that he may encounter some concerns about this when the buyer's inspector observes it. I'll also provide them links to several of the websites recommended in previous posts on what to do if you have vermiculite insulation in your home.

Anyone know if Zonolite was ever mixed with polystyrene beads by Grace? I saw this mix at a prelisting inspection and the owner asked me if I thought it was Zonolite. All of the images I have been able to find online for Zonolite appear to be straight vermiculite. I see where a vermiculite poystyrene blend was used for both soil enhancement and as cmu insulator, but I haven't been able to find any information online regarding a blend sold as an attic insulator. This home was in a farming area...perhaps the owner had some of this product left over from his garlic patch and improvised.

Has anyone seen this particular blend of vermiculite attic insulation? Could this be a blend of vermiculite and perlite? Or is perlite less spherical? Click to Enlarge 92.59 KB

The more info requested: There are 4-conductors within this clamp. Situation: The service panel was once mounted just above this in a weather-resistant wooden box on the exterior of the home. When they moved this panel inside, they needed to extend the 2-grounding electrode conductors (GECs) several feet to accommodate this move. I plan to recommend that this be replaced with either a single crimped connector, a single irreversible compression connection, or with an exothermic weld - unless someone has a strong opinion that I should do other wise - such as both individual GECs should have its own proper splice. Ken - thanks for photo.

Thanks Chad. Are you enjoying the spring like weather? Geez its been above 20 for about a week now.

Mr. Hansen states in his "Electrical Inspections of Existing Dwellings" book: "that if a grounding electrode conductor is cut, it can be repaired by an irreversible compression connection or an exothermic weld." Is this such an irreversible compression connection? Click to Enlarge 74.63 KB

Thanks everyone. I hate to assume anything. It's nice to have this forum to bounce even these simple everyday observances off. There must be a lot of plumbers who gash their heads on these things in my area. They are on practically every new water heater I see. Dave

I see these pieces of foam hung on water heater TPRV's all of the time. Do these serve some functional purpose, or were these simply placed on the valves to protect them during shipping? Something I' Download Attachment: IMG_1431.JPG 90.54 KBve always often wondered about and just getting around to asking about. Any enlightenment would be appreciated. Thanks

Jim - Yes you are correct - 2-hots, 1 neutral, & 1 EGC. Jeff - Thanks for the enlightenment on the thwn conductor rating. I don't see much of this and was not aware of the different ratings for this. Thanks for helping me to save face and giving me something else to brush up on. Dave

Marc, Based on your response, and the fact that there is no observable manufacturer listing information, it sounds like I need to call this out for further evaluation. This home has an updated service with several questionable conditions and no inspection label and I have already advised that they verify that this was permitted and inspected work. Thanks, Dave